First Gen Starter Ground Upgrade

[bull463]

Do you have to take the pipes off to get the starter out I just put mine back on.

Oh I have a 83 VR

Bull463

[dingy]

Here are a couple of pictures of the starter area with the pipes on.

 

I think the main issue is the thermostat housing has to be removed to get it out, but I am not positive.

 

Gary

[twigg]

Do you have to take the pipes off to get the starter out I just put mine back on.

Oh I have a 83 VR

Bull463

 

I just did the upgrade this week.

 

Headers off which involves loosening but not removing the radiator.

 

Thermostat housing and drain valve off.

 

That gives room to get at the starter bolts and pull it back to disengage.

 

It's gonna be stuck in there, so lightly drift it back.

[Keemez]

So, I yank everything up front all apart this afternoon to do the starter ground (& replace exhaust collector; rewire the cooling fan to a switch instead of stock), right? Turns out to my surprise that this one's already got a 4brush starter in it. Somebody musta swapped the original out already I reckon. Wellp, I'm in this far- might as well see if I can tack on an additional gnd while I'm at it.

[dingy]

Wellp, I'm in this far- might as well see if I can tack on an additional gnd while I'm at it.

 

Look at post #22 in this thread.

 

The 4 brush starter was a little more crowded on the brush plate. But it needs the extra ground path just as much as the 2 brush starter does.

 

The way I found to tell the 4 brush from the 2 brush starter on the outside is the 2 brush starter has 4 screws around the center line of the starter that go into the coil to fasten each of them to the starter body.

 

In the picture attached below, the top starter is a 2 brush, the bottom one (not complete in picture) is a 4 brush. The screw to the lower right of the 12volt cable post is the one I am referring to.

 

Gary

[Keemez]

Look at post #22 in this thread.

Yessir, that is precisely my intent (already read this thread about 3 times).

The way I found to tell the 4 brush from the 2 brush starter on the outside is the 2 brush starter has 4 screws around the center line of the starter that go into the coil to fasten each of them to the starter body.

Interesting (and noteworthy) observation.

[chillywillie]

I just got done doing the starter upgrade and I swear I think I have a like new starter.

 

The bike starter would drag when warm, I added the grounds and a extra starter ground. The battery cables were changed to number 6,I got them bulk at NAPA and also the connectors. The thing even seems to runnbetter and charge better. Thanks a bunch,I dont have to worry about that particular thing anymore.

 

kevy:301:

[SaltyDog]

I finally got tired of the slow cranking when hot with the original 2 brush starter. Since the temps around here are in the upper 90's now, I am always anxious when I stop for gas and have to endure the slow crank of the hot engine.

 

I put new brushes in last year and added the additional ground wire also. I have also routed a large ground wire from the battery to the starter mounting bolt. All my battery cables are the size of car wires. I have a AGM battery and my Shindegen R/R keeps the system up to voltage under all loads.

 

So with all that work I was still stuck with a 28 year old starter that has seen better days. I decided to start shopping for a more modern design starter to end all my troubles. The Vmax 1200's use a permanent magnet starter on the later bikes that will draw alot less current (amps). I use this type on all my other bikes and have had zero problems with hot starting in the summer. I searched on Ebay for later Vmax starters and found one from a 2001 Vmax 1200 for less than $44.00 including shipping. It looked the same as my old one from the pictures in the Ebay ad so I said "what the heck" and bought the unit.

 

I got the starter today and it fit perfectly into the engine case. The only difference between two starters was the newer one has a slightly longer output shaft (~1/4 inch). I looked into the engine case and could see plenty of clearance so I gently pushed it into position and checked for interference. NO problems. When all was hooked up, the starter spun the engine faster and was quieter than the old starter. I ran the bike in the shed (>100 degrees air temp) untill the bike came up to operating temperature and then shut it off. I waited about ten minutes then tried to start the bike, NO difference in turning speed. I repeated this a couple of times thoughout the afternoon while I was working on the bike and the starter worked perfectly.

 

I will put all the plastic back on in the morning and go out for a real ride to see if it makes the same improvement out on the road during fuel stops. Either way I got a starter that is newer in technology and 18 years younger.

[Snaggletooth]

Hey Scott,

 

Good move. You'll be happy with the results no doubt about it. I had the hot start problem when I first got mine and it drove me nuts. I'd have the bike stall once in a while at a light and I be in search mode looking for a place to push it off the road. I did the rebuild with new (cheap) brushes and found that the PO had done some kind of wiring mod inside the starter. Got to banging heads with Dinghy on it and he came up with the current solution. Way better than what the PO had done to mine. The rebuild made a huge difference and I got by for about a year until the cheap brushes failed.

 

With all the info here I ended up with, in this order, cable upgrade, starter ground mod, upgrade stator, Danos starter engage clutch mod, a 4 brush starter, a new DEKA AGM and I just added the Shindengen R/R this spring. As far as I'm concerned, that is all you can do to make it right. Adding the Shindengen was the cherry on top. Heck of a unit.

 

Not to mention I got the carbs right so it don't stall at the lights anymore.

 

The temps have been hitting in the 90's here also and I can run through a tank of gas, kill the bike and tap the switch and it's running again. Starts the same at 90 or 19.

 

Makes one a little more comfortable when you are 500 miles from the house.

 

Enjoy your ride tomorrow. Gonna need pontoons around here pretty soon. Not looking good for my night rides along the river this year. Well, at least the river is getting closer.

 

Mike

[Keemez]

I finally completed a slightly modified version of the 4 brush ground update in this post (see #22). This upgrade was among several heavy hitters that I did in a series of mods... bike has been down for a month or so. I'm anxious to get it back together and ride again! Anyway, on to "my" ground update:

 

Instead of soldering to the top of one of the ground posts, I stuck some 12ga wire through one of the rivet holes that mount the ground tower to the plate, flattened the stripped portion of wire a full half inch or more long out, and then soldered it to the bottom side of the plate in the raised/recessed area under the ground tower. (SG1)

[ATTACH]57409[/ATTACH]

 

You can see the wire coming up from underneath and under the braided brush wire in this photo (SG2).

[ATTACH]57410[/ATTACH]

 

In this photo (SG3) you can see how the wire has been tucked underneath the braided brush wire and run toward the outside of the brush plate.

[ATTACH]57411[/ATTACH]

 

Here you can see the alternate angle of the wire coming under the braided brush wire and starter in mostly reassembled state. I had to be pretty cautious about not stretching or stressing the braided wire any more than necessary to get everything situated just right. Also, I took another 90 degree bend to run partially around the circumference of the brush plate so as to get lined up with a good area to go up and out the end cap. I couldn't run it straight up because it would have been very near one of the tower bosses on the inside of the cap and furthermore one of the starter mounting bosses on the outside of the cap. (SG4)

[ATTACH]57412[/ATTACH]

 

Here the wire has been fed through the hole I drilled.... pretty much straight above where the wire took its final 90 degree bend to go up/out the end cap. (SG5)

[ATTACH]57413[/ATTACH]

 

And finally, everything mounted in place with a nice big ring terminal pinched under the upper mount bolt, and a generous dollop of RTV to seal the hole in the endcap. (SG6)

[ATTACH]57414[/ATTACH]

 

So far I've only bench tested it. Hope I don't wind up going all the way back in there... that'd be a pain.

Edited June 10, 2011 by Keemez

[Chaharly]

I'm definately doing this on my 83, Did you screw in the screw from the inside so you can put a nut on it on the other side to connect or disconnect the ground wire?

[dingy]

The rear end housing isn't real thick, so it would be easy to strip the threads in a small screw. The outside nut is to allow higher torque on screw.

 

Gary

[deanmay]

I searched on Ebay for later Vmax starters and found one from a 2001 Vmax 1200 for less than $44.00 including shipping.

 

So is this starter still working well for you? As I understand from your post, you did NOT do the grounding strap mod to this starter, but just installed it as is stock. is that correct?

 

 

I'm coming in late on this thread, but I have a couple of observations. One is that I would be concerned about the insulation on the wire used for the ground strap. This is a pretty high heat environment. I think I would peel the insulation and just have bare wire. Bare wire will shed more heat which also make it more tolerant of higher current.

 

The other concern would be vibration causing the wire strands to break. It may be better to use several fine strand speaker wires to get the right amount of copper. Another possibility is to use actual braided grounding strap.

 

Now that you guys have been using this mod of a couple of years, is it holding up well?

 

And why isn't this mod a sticky? I read an oblique reference to it in a newbie post and decided to wade through until I found it. My new '87 definitely needs starter help, but for $50 I think I might just buy the VMax starter.

 

Thanks, Dean

[SaltyDog]

I just installed the later Vmax 4 brush starter as is. It still works fine. I would recommend this to all the bikes running the older 2 brush starters.

 

Along with the upgraded positive cable to the starter and I also ran a large additional ground wire to the starter mounting bolts. All this is to make as low a resistance current path as possible.

[deanmay]

Would this be it?

 

NEW-Yamaha-V-MAX-VMAX-V-MAX-1200-Starter-YS24

 

http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/m/mVeO3GIc6Mk3RdbmFq9_p8g/140.jpg

[Snaggletooth]

So is this starter still working well for you? As I understand from your post, you did NOT do the grounding strap mod to this starter, but just installed it as is stock. is that correct?

 

With the 4 brush starter, it's a bit tricky to do the mod. Very tight space in there. It can be done, but realy not needed. I've had no issues at all with my 4 brush since it was installed a few years ago.

 

 

I'm coming in late on this thread, but I have a couple of observations. One is that I would be concerned about the insulation on the wire used for the ground strap. This is a pretty high heat environment. I think I would peel the insulation and just have bare wire. Bare wire will shed more heat which also make it more tolerant of higher current.

 

Insulation is not an issue as it is a ground wire. No insulation is needed. Bare wire is best choice.

 

The other concern would be vibration causing the wire strands to break. It may be better to use several fine strand speaker wires to get the right amount of copper. Another possibility is to use actual braided grounding strap.

 

Stranded wire will carry more current as it travels along the outside if the wire, not through it. The more strands.... more current...less resistance. I ended up using a double set of wires on mine before I swapped out for the 4 brush unit.

 

These mod wires are very short so there isn't going to be a whole lot of movement in the wires once the case is closed up. I wouldn't worry about breakage.

 

Now that you guys have been using this mod of a couple of years, is it holding up well?

 

Mine held up very well for a couple of years until the brushs failed. (my bad on that)

 

And why isn't this mod a sticky? I read an oblique reference to it in a newbie post and decided to wade through until I found it. My new '87 definitely needs starter help, but for $50 I think I might just buy the VMax starter.

 

If you can go the bucks for the 4 brush do so. That is pretty much the final fix for poor start/hot start issues. The ground mod helps a lot, but it's the final answer.

 

Thanks, Dean

 

Hey Dean,

 

I think I was the one that kind of started this whole ground wire mod that ended up being so popular. Wasn't even my idea origianally. I was tearing down the '84 I had bought and found a modification done to the brush plate by the PO apparently. He had used a section of spring steel, like the tension arm on a set of points, bolted to the brush plate and then it pressed against the inside of the starter case. It was obviously there to increase the ground properties but it was a bit complicated to set up.

 

I was talking to Dingy about what I had found and he came up with the current mod as most are doing it today. It works.

 

Mike

[twigg]

I originally did the ground mod on my starter, and upgraded the cables to 4-gauge.

 

This worked well for a while but the starter eventually began to work when it wanted to.

 

I recently got a 4-brush starter from an '06 RSV that had only 25000 miles on it.

 

It bolted straight on and has been flawless since.

 

I think the starter cost me around $50 from Pinwall.

[dingy]

The 4 brush starter is defiantly an improvement over the 2 brush starter, by far.

 

But it still has the same inherent design flaw that the 2 brush starter has. This is the plate that holds the brushes does not have a 'hard' path to ground. Both rely on 3 tangs on the brush plate to make good contact with the end bell housing, which is the path to ground. The starter lives in a rather harsh place on the bike. It is directly under the front exhaust headers. The starter is called upon to operate from whatever ambient temperature is, up to 250~300F. There are dissimilar metals in the contact plate to end bell connection surface, which expand & contract at slightly different rates, over thousands of high/low temperatures swings. This coupled with the starter possibly pulling 100 amps at initial start up and there is the very likely potential for carbon build up due to arcing (however slight) repeatedly.

 

The 4 brush starter is harder to do the grounding modification to, as there is not a good point to fasten an eyelet to the brush plate. I silver soldered a piece of wire to the top of one of the brush holders on my 4 brush starter. Silver solder requires a lot more heat than standard solder, but will also stand up better under harsh environments. The use of a braided type wire would make this jumper much easier to do.

 

Few pictures attached of starter brush plates.

 

And this thread is in the 1st gen tech section at:

 

VentureRider.Org > Technical Library - Read Only > First Gen Tech Library - READ ONLY! > Computer, Lights, Horns, Other Electrical

Gary

[deanmay]

My Venture has been sitting since I posted last, but Sunday I tore into the starter. I took the radiator loose, removed hoses at bottom, took drain tube out of thermostat housing, removed exhaust pipes. I did not have to remove the thermostat housing, i was able to drop the rear of the starter enough that it came out. I used some grounding strap that I have quite a it of and with it I was able to screw it to the same screw that the ground brush lead is attached to. Not using the crimped on terminals provided a lot more room in there. The end of the ground strap was solder tinned with a hole in it so it went on that screw terminal very nicely. The solder makes the end pretty stiff so I was able to bend it to give direction to the tail of the strap away from the arbor.

 

I've got it mostly all together, starter works great, but haven't been able to test it hot yet.

 

 

(can't get image to show try this link

 

Thanks for the great tip.

Edited August 7, 2012 by deanmay

[dingy]

My Venture has been sitting since I posted last, but Sunday I tore into the starter. I took the radiator loose, removed hoses at bottom, took drain tube out of thermostat housing, removed exhaust pipes. I did not have to remove the thermostat housing, i was able to drop the rear of the starter enough that it came out. I used some grounding strap that I have quite a it of and with it I was able to screw it to the same screw that the ground brush lead is attached to. Not using the crimped on terminals provided a lot more room in there. The end of the ground strap was solder tinned with a hole in it so it went on that screw terminal very nicely. The solder makes the end pretty stiff so I was able to bend it to give direction to the tail of the strap away from the arbor.

 

I've got it mostly all together, starter works great, but haven't been able to test it hot yet.

 

 

Thanks for the great tip.

 

I got a copy of your picture via my email download to this thread which isn't showing up when I open thread. Not sure what happened there, but I reattached it below for others to see.

 

It looks good. Did you clean the commutator before you put it back in, doesn't look real good in your picture. About 600 grit emery cloth.

 

Deanmay's picture from previous thread attached in this post.

 

Gary

[twigg]

My Venture has been sitting since I posted last, but Sunday I tore into the starter. I took the radiator loose, removed hoses at bottom, took drain tube out of thermostat housing, removed exhaust pipes. I did not have to remove the thermostat housing, i was able to drop the rear of the starter enough that it came out. I used some grounding strap that I have quite a it of and with it I was able to screw it to the same screw that the ground brush lead is attached to. Not using the crimped on terminals provided a lot more room in there. The end of the ground strap was solder tinned with a hole in it so it went on that screw terminal very nicely. The solder makes the end pretty stiff so I was able to bend it to give direction to the tail of the strap away from the arbor.

 

I've got it mostly all together, starter works great, but haven't been able to test it hot yet.

 

Thanks for the great tip.

 

It's a sensible upgrade, as it increasing the sizes of the power and ground cables between the battery/starter and the engine/battery.

 

However, that two-brush starter is weak, and the grounding mod might not be enough, or may only work for a while. That's what happened to mine. I made the mod and it worked for a while, then it failed again.

 

The permanent repair was to replace the starter with a 4-brush from a 2005 bike.

 

Ten thousand miles later it is working flawlessly, and I didn't do the ground mod on the new starter.

 

[deanmay]

Did you do an autopsy to see why it failed? I'm curious to know if the wire used broke. That is why I used ground strap as I was concerned about fatigue failure.

 

Yes, I did clean up the commutator. Thanks,

[twigg]

Did you do an autopsy to see why it failed? I'm curious to know if the wire used broke. That is why I used ground strap as I was concerned about fatigue failure.

 

Yes, I did clean up the commutator. Thanks,

 

If you mean me, then the ground mod didn't fail, it's sat on my bench, intact.

 

The starter simply went back to being un-reliable, especially in the heat of the OK summer.

 

The new starter has never failed to spin.

[Peder_y2k]

When I service the 2 brush starters on my bikes, I re-bend the internal ground tangs of the brush plate to insure strong good contact on reassembly. The 3 ground tangs will dig into the metal case for good grounding when the end cap is tightened on. Works for me and my 2 Ventures crank quickly hot and cold.

-Pete, in Tacoma WA USA

'83, '88VR

[yamihami]

Hi guys so let me if this is right if I understand all this. When by bike is really hot( stop and go at the US Canada border) any attempt therafter to start the bike until it has cooled down has cause this crazy monkey with a hammer in the engine. I"ve read that this could possibly be caused by a damaged starter clutch engagement mechanism (loose bolts(3) or cracked housing). As the noise only happens when the starter seems to have a hard time to turn over and hesitates as if the voltage were insufficient you might be suggesting that the problem probably resides in a bad starter design and all I might have to do is replace with a 4 brush starter or solder an extra ground lead inside my 2 brush starter and all might be okay:fingers-crossed-emo