transmission / shifting trouble

[massey130]

i have been having trouble with my 04 RSV. I have been posting in the watering hole, but so far i have not found the problem. it has trouble shifting. clutch and its fluid checks out ok. the shifter linkage checks out ok. i pulled the middle gear cover off (left rear cover) and it checks out ok. thinking it was an engine oil level, oil was changed

 

this started out of the blue. i parked the scooter after a ride when shifting was working properly, found a slow leak, ordered a new tire, put the tire on. went for a test ride. shifting up was fine and the trouble started upon my first down shift, it would not down shift. i could come to a stop and pound on the shifter getting back to first. then repeat. after a couple times of this, the shifter began to "flop" out of place. not left or right. when toeing up to 3rd, the shifter just kept moving upwards nearly 5 inches with no changing of gears. i would have to toe the down to get things back to an order where i could get home.

 

coasting around corners does work too well and lugging around in the wrong gear is not the way to do things. any suggestions as to what is happening would be appreciated.

[massey130]

some pictures can be found in this link -

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=46195

 

page 2.

[massey130]

well, no suggestions so far. i am going to the shop and pull the cover off the enging and take a look see.

[LilBeaver]

Sorry no one has chimed in to help you. I cannot be much help other than I sortof remember someone else having some issues with this and it being related to the 'shifter fork' or something like that. I have been searching for quite a bit of time now and cannot seem to find the thread that I recall seeing on that though.

 

Again, sorry I can't be any more help. I did see in the other thread that there was talk about the clutch fluid - make sure that you only have that reservoir about half full of fluid (not all the way full).

 

Hopefully some of the whizzes can hop in and give you some real help on this...

 

[massey130]

Sorry no one has chimed in to help you. I cannot be much help other than I sortof remember someone else having some issues with this and it being related to the 'shifter fork' or something like that. I have been searching for quite a bit of time now and cannot seem to find the thread that I recall seeing on that though.

 

Again, sorry I can't be any more help. I did see in the other thread that there was talk about the clutch fluid - make sure that you only have that reservoir about half full of fluid (not all the way full).

 

Hopefully some of the whizzes can hop in and give you some real help on this...

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

thanks Lil B. i am back in the house to search on how to remove the engine cover. the pipe covers are in the way. there must be an easier way. i will check the fork information in the manual. i have it printed out & in a binder. finding stuff in it though is a chore in itself. i am getting frustrated & tryin to stay calm. i believe i will need those ball ended allen wrenches though. if that's the case, i will have to run 65 miles round trip to get some.

 

later and thanks. no responses tells me i may have to go to the dealer.

[LilBeaver]

Okay page 9-3 of the service manual gives some shifting troubleshooting 'information'. Such as:

 

Shift pedal does not move:

 

• Shift shaft (Starts on Pg. 4-54 -- how to 'check it' on pg 4-56)
  
• improperly adjusted shift rod
  
• bent shift shaft
  
• shift drum and shift fork(s)
  
• Foreign object in the shift drum groove
  
• seized shift fork
  
• bent shift fork guide bar
  
• Seized transmission gear
  
• Foreign object between transmission gears
  
• Improperly assembled transmission
  

Now that I have read through the manual a little more it looks like the shift shaft/rod might be the next thing to look into. If it wasn't bent before, I am wondering if having to force it into gear may have bent it out of shape even more... But I have never had one of these apart (on these bikes) to really give you more than what I can get out of the manual.

 

By the way, do you know when the bike was originally purchased? there is a change, if it was a late purchase, you may still be under warranty (ie if it was purchased at or later than march of 2005). If you call a dealer with your VIN number they can tell you date of which the warranty went into effect.

Edited March 14, 2010 by LilBeaver
Added page numbers

[massey130]

ok, i see that. now to find where the place in the manual where the info is to check the particular item. just got to search. thanks for the head start.

[LilBeaver]

ok, i see that. now to find where the place in the manual where the info is to check the particular item. just got to search. thanks for the head start.

 

 

Yup yup - I added the page numbers in my last post. I only found those few pages on the shift fork/rod assembly. It doesn't look like it is too terribly complicated - just maybe a little bit of a PIA to actually get out to work on.

[Marcarl]

Check the ends of the shift shaft to make sure they are no slipping on the shafts that they are tightened on to. There is one at the front of the shaft and one at the back, just under the cover you removed.

[massey130]

Check the ends of the shift shaft to make sure they are no slipping on the shafts that they are tightened on to. There is one at the front of the shaft and one at the back, just under the cover you removed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

I could not get past the large nut in the center. so i could not get a good look behind it. i will add to my tools and get a gasket so i am ready when putting it back together.

 

the shaft you mention, is that the one in the botton left of the clutch area? i had a hard time move the shifter and watching the shift fork move. i did mange to watch some movement. no slippage seen, but i was not knowing what i was watching for. i will have a better idea when completley apart. any tips removing the rest of the stuff?

[massey130]

here are some pics

[Marcarl]

You are now in the clutch area. The shaft I was refering to is on the other side, out in the open, it goes from the heel and toe shifter to the middle gear cover. It's knurled at each end and you might have some slippage there. This doesn't sound like an internal issue to me,,,, just doesn't seem to make any sense to be internal.

[massey130]

other than figureing how things are supposed to work, i haven't had hands on another RSV to know working from non working. but, after checking for what has been suggested, the linkages seem to be ok.

 

when running on the stand, there was a lot of racket coming from inside, so i am looking in. but as you suggest, the links, may explain why the shifter flops backwards by 4 inches or so.

there is a texas maint day scheduled, i may just bag my parts and trailer it there.

[davecb]

If your shifter moved 5 inches, then it has to be your linkage coming apart. If it's not the linkage.... Ouch on the repair bill.....

[massey130]

if you aren't got in the wash cycle, you get got in the rinse cycle.

 

i will go back over it tomorrow evening. i only have 22,000 miles on it. we will see.

 

i seem to be running out of suggestions. I will keep my fingers crossed.

 

thanks to all who have contributed.

[Guest tx2sturgis]

My 2007 RSV (26,000 miles) been getting progressively harder to downshift. I replaced and bled the clutch fluid...and very little to no difference.

 

It still upshifts normally as far as I can tell, but downshifts, from 3rd to 2nd and 2nd to 1st are getting more and more difficult. I have to slightly 'blip' the throttle and it will downshift a bit easier. Also, when the motor is cold, or slightly warmed up, its still fairly easy to downshift, but as the motor ( and oil) warms up to operating temperature, the problem gets much worse. I have changed the oil twice since since this began, and no difference in shifting with new oil.

 

I dont THINK this is clutch wear, but I could be wrong. I dont notice any clutch slippage in any gears or throttle-on situations.

 

Its a 100 mile roundtrip to the closest dealer. Wondering if I should let the dealer take a ride on it to see if its a clutch problem or a transmission problem.

 

Anyone had this happen?

 

[67mini67]

I was having similar issues shifting and it ended up being a loose shifter pivot bolt. tightened it up and all is well 1500 miles later.

[gunkylump]

Please excuse my lack of technical expertise with terminology, but..

 

It sounds to me like one of the "wishbones" that move inside the tranny...or wherever in there, they move the linkages to change gears....is either loose or bent. Doesn't sound like it has fallen off or broken just yet.

 

I had that issue with my 96 royal star, and the dealer had to open it up and change out a "wishbone" which had broken. The tricky part was finding all the broken pieces.

 

I'm pretty sure there is a write up in the tech section on this.

 

gunk

[jrcain32]

Just to throw something out, and I may be completely off base so bear with me. When you changed the tire (rear I'm assuming) did you remove the shaft drive to lube it, both ends? I ask because the first time I did I had a devil of a time getting it back in and aligned on the upper (transmission) end. I thought I had it lined up correctly until I tried to put it in gear. I had to take it back out and get help. If you did maybe something is not lined up properly. I had to get help from people on this forum who has done it before and they explained the process. Just a thought...

[RJD]

I have had a problem for several years on my "02" downshifting does not always work. I may be sitting at a light and downshifting or occasionally while moving and downshifting the shifter acts like I am already in first but I know I am not. the shifter just bottoms out without changing gears. letting out the clutch slightly or blipping the throttle will allow it to shift. I have wondered what this may be but didn't really want to get into it. we have riden many miles like this and it does not seem to get any worse. It also does not do it all the time. This has done this before and after changing clutches and pressure plate. I do not feel they are related. I am wondering now that I have read this thread if it does have something to do with the shifting fork.

[V7Goose]

My 2007 RSV (26,000 miles) been getting progressively harder to downshift. I replaced and bled the clutch fluid...and very little to no difference.

 

It still upshifts normally as far as I can tell, but downshifts, from 3rd to 2nd and 2nd to 1st are getting more and more difficult. I have to slightly 'blip' the throttle and it will downshift a bit easier. Also, when the motor is cold, or slightly warmed up, its still fairly easy to downshift, but as the motor ( and oil) warms up to operating temperature, the problem gets much worse. I have changed the oil twice since since this began, and no difference in shifting with new oil.

 

I dont THINK this is clutch wear, but I could be wrong. I dont notice any clutch slippage in any gears or throttle-on situations.

 

Its a 100 mile roundtrip to the closest dealer. Wondering if I should let the dealer take a ride on it to see if its a clutch problem or a transmission problem.

 

Anyone had this happen?

 

There are a number of things that could cause your problem, but one thing it is NOT is worn clutch plates.

 

The first possibility is the most simple. Since you suggest that synchronizing gear speed on downshifts (blipping the throttle) allows the gears to change, your clutch may not be fully disengaging. Two checks for this - the first is to just put it in gear and see how easy it is to push around while holding the clutch in (or raise the rear wheel and try turning it by hand the same way). Compare how easy it is to turn the wheel or push while in gear and holding the clutch in to neutral. There will typically be a little clutch drag that you may feel, but since I have never actually done this comparison on the RSV, I cannot say for sure how significant that might be. The other test is to simply ride the bike and shift without using the clutch at all.

 

Clutch-less shifting is very simple and safe if you understand the principle and do not try to force anything. Up-shifting is totally simple since the gear speeds synchronize naturally as you roll off the throttle. Just pre-load the shifter by putting light pressure with your heel on the shifter, then quickly roll the throttle off and back on; the bike will up-shift almost instantly as soon as you drop the throttle, and if you roll it back on fast enough it will feel as smooth as an automatic. You do NOT need to try to force the shift by applying more pressure. In fact, putting more pressure on the shifter when it is not ready to shift is the way you bend shifter forks!

 

Down shifting without the clutch is just slightly more tricky since you have to speed the engine up to synchronize the gears. If you have never done this, practice in 5th and 4th until it gets easy. When you are ready to downshift, start by pre-loading the shifter with light pressure from your toe, then quickly blip the throttle. As the RPMs rise and the gears synchronize, the bike will shift down. In this case you do not want to roll off the throttle too quickly since the lower gear will need the higher RPM to maintain the same speed. With just a little practice it will become second nature.

 

The whole point of testing your bike by shifting without a clutch is to simply remove the clutch form the list of possible problems. If the linkage and transmission are OK, you will be able to shift it fine with the technique above. If you are uncomfortable trying this while riding, you can simulate the test fairly well by just raising the rear wheel off the ground and trying to shift it the same way without the engine running at all. Just put some pressure on the shifter and rotate the rear tire by hand and it should easily shift up or down.

 

The second possibility is something wrong with the shift linkage - lots of possibilities there, so it just needs a close inspection of each part. This could be anything from just being maladjusted so that it does not move the shift fork far enough in one direction to worn out pivots or bent parts. If there is a problem with the linkage, the same trouble shifting should be evident whether you are using the clutch or not.

 

The third possibility is a bent shifter fork inside the transmission. This can easily cause exactly the symptoms you describe, but diagnosing it will require you to open up the transmission. Although I have never looked into the transmission details on this engine, it probably requires you to completely dismantle the engine and split the case.

Goose

Edited October 26, 2010 by V7Goose

[Michael_Bishop]

I had trouble down shifting on my 05 RSTD a few years ago. It would up shift just fine. Pull over a look at the heel toe shifter. The bolt holding the heel toe shifter on was loose. When I went to down shift with the bolt loose it was letting the shfter hit the footboard. Took me a minute to tighen up.

[Condor]

You are now in the clutch area. The shaft I was refering to is on the other side, out in the open, it goes from the heel and toe shifter to the middle gear cover. It's knurled at each end and you might have some slippage there. This doesn't sound like an internal issue to me,,,, just doesn't seem to make any sense to be internal.

 

My thoughts too.... Especially since the shifter doesn't stop when up-shifting...

[Guest tx2sturgis]

Clutch-less shifting is very simple and safe if you understand the principle and do not try to force anything....

 

The second possibility is something wrong with the shift linkage - lots of possibilities there, so it just needs a close inspection of each part....

 

 

The third possibility is a bent shifter fork inside the transmission. This can easily cause exactly the symptoms you describe, but diagnosing it will require you to open up the transmission. Although I have never looked into the transmission details on this engine, it probably requires you to completely dismantle the engine and split the case.

Goose

 

Yep we call that 'speed-shifting' sometimes and I'm quite familiar...started out on dirt bikes 40 something years ago! The bike will speedshift (clutchless) up and down but feels resistant and notchy in the lower gears. I will try to do more thorough testing today...riding time has been scarce for me the last few weeks.

 

I will also look over the shifting linkage again...it seemed OK when I checked things over the last time I changed the oil, but will give it more of a look-see soon.

 

I suspect its an internal problem. About 2 weeks ago, when sitting at idle and snicking it into first gear, it made an unusual 'clank'...not the usual 'clunk' or 'thwip' but more of a 'CLAANK'....it's a sound I have not heard from this bike before. ( you guys like my sound effects?)

 

It seems as if some other riders here have noticed some notchy shifting....this bike has NEVER shifted as buttery smooth as any other bike I have owned, but then, I just attributed it to the old-style tranny and the shift linkage. There has always been some 'sloppy-ness' in the heel-toe shifter linkage. Shifts on this bike have never been what you would call 'precise'.

 

Since I have never ridden any other Royal Stars other than the demo models at Sturgis, and they seemed fine, I can only assume it may be a situation with my bike. I will post later as things are sorted out.

 

Thanks for the help Goose and others!

 

 

 

[V7Goose]

FYI - the OP (massey130) was way back in March - I assume his problem is either fixed or his bike is parked in a field somewhere by now. Further replies to him are probably not of value.

 

But tx2sturgis just resurrected this thread with a similar problem, so if you are going to reply, maybe focus on him and not the stuff from back in March? Just a suggestion to y'all.

Goose