Clutch Whine-One last question

[Guest KitCarson]

I named my bike cricket, just messing around and now I think I will keep the name! Again I will say I really love and enjoy this venture, I do not mind the so called whine at the higher speeds, or at the top of the power band in lower gears, just means no HD will ever catch me!! To me it is just not an issue, I have owned other bikes and several of them had this same gear whine.

But I have not been lazy, I have read everything I can find on this situation, both here on this site, have called and talked to an old friend who is most likely the best mechanic ever, been to the library, looked up cut gears, helical gears, beveled gears, meshed and partial meshed, even obtained parts breakdowns of the venture tranny, details and so on.

So some of you have tried a different clutch basket-why do they call it a basket anyway? Just the main gear..........? And it has never really cured anything, just changed the harmonics to a different rpm, to the higher range in effect. Some of you have changed the rear drive unit......again this caused you to move your rpms up. Puts you in the peak of the power band for the particular gear, especially the higher gears. Nothing has seemed to work.

 

Now a hint, and my question. And I and all of us may need some help from someone who knows a whole lot about oil, its effects and properties. I found out at the library they used to use and still do use forged and cut gears in machines such as lathes, and sawmill wheels.

They use 80 to 90 weight gear oil in the gear box, runs quiet as a snowflake. I own a wood turning lathe, I took the heavy oil out of the gear box and poured kerosene in and turned it on ,rinsed it out. Filled the gearbox with some old 10W30, put the drive belt on the high gear, presto, I had gear whine!!!!

 

Now , all vehicle makers, cars, bikes, snowmobiles, all of them recommend somewhat light and variable viscosity oils, as whomever buys the vehicle may live in Alaska at minus 10 degrees or worse, to South Carolina at 107 degrees in the shade sometimes. So this multi-viscosity oil solves all and answers all, no more discussion about oils, one solution for all. Or is it?? Lighter viscosity oils unless I am wrong are for the north, they coat the motor better at low start up temps. Usn's in the south have runny oil all the time, a cold day around here is 28 degrees.

 

So if a higher viscosity oil will keep my wood lathe quiet, would it not quiet down cut gears in any mechanical gearbox?

 

Any oil research pros out there? Can we use a higher viscosity oil, a slightly heavier one? Warm the bike up for a few minutes prior to putting a load on the motor(all us old Harley riders did that-if we didn't the head gasket would blow by the time we got to the mailbox):rotf:.

 

For what it is worth this is my common sense question, can we use a higher viscosity oil and not harm the engine, I already know it will not harm the transmission, and even heavy oil when warm will reach the rings........but there is the oil pump, a lot of variables, anyone want to take this challenge? It makes a lot of sense to me, my experiment with the lathe was promising. Just how heavy an oil can one use in the Bike?

 

 

Kit

[SilvrT]

I'd still think a multi-viscosity oil would be best; however, possibly a 20w50 weight or maybe some kind of additive such as slick 50 or the like. If only the tranny's were separate from the crankcase eh...

[Guest KitCarson]

I'd still think a multi-viscosity oil would be best; however, possibly a 20w50 weight or maybe some kind of additive such as slick 50 or the like. If only the tranny's were separate from the crankcase eh...

There has been many a lawsuit over slick 50. In fact they are under a major one against our own government for false representation. Do a search for slick 50 and oil additives........in fact teflon in the engine creates more problems than it solves.....stops up oil filters,,,,,,,,burns bearings, no slick fifty is bad news. Kit

[eagleeye]

Kit,

I've been reading about whine for a long time now. I just bought a bike that might, at some time have it.

Your post was way more than interesting.

couple of things, I had a friend that swore by straight weight oil. But in a bike with the oil doing the job of the engine and transmission, I'm sure that won't work. I've always been told to be sure and use oil made for motorcycles, that is made to lubricate both.

Your logic is very good, now which oil, and I mean heavy oil will work in our bikes.

I don't know the answer, but will for sure remember your comparison with the lathe.

Food for thought!

Thanks,

Steve

[Thom]

how about Harley 50 wt oil ?

[Buzzard1]

SLICK 50:(--NO NO NO--TEFLON:(----NO NO NO:(----TEFLON---BAD BAD--BAD-----Buzzard

[James Ardrey]

Great post Steve. Makes sense. I use Valvoline 20\50 in mine but there is still some whine. My97 royalstar whined also but I think the lower and upper faring reflects engine noise back and or the reduction in wind noise makes the whine and other engine noises more pronounced. Let us know if you find a heavy oil that is safe and effective. I may do a little research myself.

[Cougar]

How heavy and slick is Lucus Oil (additive)? I tried that stuff

last year and it did nothing for the whine in my basket.

[Guest KitCarson]

How heavy and slick is Lucus Oil (additive)? I tried that stuff

last year and it did nothing for the whine in my basket.

I actually called Lucas Oil this morning, and talked to one of their reps for quite some time. I plan to talk to several more people also. I was told to use only 10 percent ratio with Lucas additive as more will or may cause a wet clutch like our ventures have to start slipping. Yes this is a time tested and proven product, it is not like snake oil and slick 50. This is actually a great product and is used extensively in big trucks. At the moment I have an oil change coming up, and I plan with all the information I can gather to use a slightly heavier oil, 20W50, and put the 10 percent ratio in and try it. My venture really does not have that much whine, or maybe I am used to it or expected it, as I did have an 1400 Suzuki Intruder that sounded just like the venture, and there was no fairings or windshield on it, it was a hot , fast, powerful play toy. It was just the characteristic of the transmission to make some noise.

I am only searching for answers to try to help everyone, and I also love unsolved situations, gives me something to do. I am however going to try this new oil mix and see if it quiets things down a bit, if it does it will help some of the bikes. If not, hey, I am going to shut up and never mention it again, enjoy my Venture and be happy. I honestly thing it is the best Bike I have ever had, and I have had quite a few of them.

I will tell those of you who recently asked how fast is a venture? It is fast. let me assure you, but more than that if you run the thing like it was made to , wind those rpms up, its power will surprise you, it is the most responsive bike there is. However I cannot tell you how fast it is.......I never exceed the speed limit, even on the interstate 70 is all I do. I used to be 21 and dodge bullets, once on a Harley, was up to about 130, went into a high speed wobble.....that pretty much cured me of that kind of nonsense. Slow down fellows, you will live to ride again, enjoy the fall colors, take the secondary roads, let the impatient cars pass on by, this venture is perfect for a lazy day on those secondary roads.

Kit

[Leo]

I just changed my oil a few weeks back and used 10w-30 and 20% Lucas oil additive - it stated on the side of the bottle that this mixture would be OK. The noise is still there. No clutch problems in the 1800 miles I have since put on the bike. I guess next time I will try a heavier grade oil

[Bubber]

to Kit Carson

 

Don't ever let a good conversation and discussion like the one you started ever let you be in the silent majority. Discussions like that are rare and pervoke the thought that is needed to spark more interest.

 

I thought your very first post was great and got me to thinking.... and that in itself is a feat that few have tackled.:rotf:

 

 

Keep it going

[hig4s]

Mine started to whine about 500 miles, at the first oil change I switched to Mobil 1 motorcycle oil, 20w-50. The noise is minimal now.

 

Oh, by the way. Kit, I hate the font.

[Cougar]

Yes I was the same way last year on my thinking that Kit has..

I have tried and tried. differant oils and additives. but finely gave up

it cost me a arm and a leg to try all this and nothing improved it.

 

I REALLY hope that Kit can come up with somthing. I am defeantley

keeping and Eye on this thread.

 

Like Kit. I love this bike and have learned to just stay at the right RPM's

for NO SOUND at all. I finely got it figured out but adding a $50.00 Tech!

 

I also am going the do the rear end higher rpm thing this winter. and

my RPMs for the speeds I like to ride at will be perfect !

Thanks Kit for looking into this matter more. I also think that some bikes

are extremly load in this matter as you stated.

Have a great day!

Jeff

[Eugene]

Slow down fellows, you will live to ride again, enjoy the fall colors, take the secondary roads, let the impatient cars pass on by, this venture is perfect for a lazy day on those secondary roads.

Kit

 

Nice post Kit - and I did that today - secondary roads around the Beaver Valley in Ontario and the colours were magnificent. (I did crank it up a bit now and then!!!)

 

Eugene

 

ps - please keep posting and let us know what you find - very informative and thanks!

[Vance]

We all share the ache. Perhaps Kit will find the cure.

Or anyone else who is willing to try. We know it is up to us.

[Guest KitCarson]

Mine started to whine about 500 miles, at the first oil change I switched to Mobil 1 motorcycle oil, 20w-50. The noise is minimal now.

 

Oh, by the way. Kit, I hate the font.

Hey what is a font? Does that fit on some kind of motorcycle? You will have to take me with a grain of salt sometimes, I am liable to say most anything, low key till I know you, then look out!! Kit

[Guest KitCarson]

Nice post Kit - and I did that today - secondary roads around the Beaver Valley in Ontario and the colours were magnificent. (I did crank it up a bit now and then!!!)

 

Eugene

 

ps - please keep posting and let us know what you find - very informative and thanks!

Hi Eugene.....yes I will blow the doors of the occasional car also, is great fun to kick this powerful machine down a gear and play with it a bit. If I ever lose the thrill of that, hope I never do. Just warning some of these young dummies, high speed on a bike has one place, on a track with all kinds of protective gear . I was a young dummy once,long ago, age 12 to 14 I used to road race, for yamaha, drive chain snapped in a power slide, I went across the field, through the hay bales, busted through the white wood fence, and slide into the bleachers and never got a scratch, but had on a full suit, full helmet, all that stuff, got lucky and survived it all, now I like to enjoy life, take it easy, and the bike is my love and joy.

Kit

[Eugene]

Hi Eugene.....yes I will blow the doors of the occasional car also, is great fun to kick this powerful machine down a gear and play with it a bit. If I ever lose the thrill of that, hope I never do. Just warning some of these young dummies, high speed on a bike has one place, on a track with all kinds of protective gear . I was a young dummy once,long ago, age 12 to 14 I used to road race, for yamaha, drive chain snapped in a power slide, I went across the field, through the hay bales, busted through the white wood fence, and slide into the bleachers and never got a scratch, but had on a full suit, full helmet, all that stuff, got lucky and survived it all, now I like to enjoy life, take it easy, and the bike is my love and joy.

Kit

 

Excellent points Kit - nice to enjoy the "thrill" now and again - MUCH nicer to cruise and relax!!

Cheers

Eugene

[SilvrT]

There has been many a lawsuit over slick 50. In fact they are under a major one against our own government for false representation. Do a search for slick 50 and oil additives........in fact teflon in the engine creates more problems than it solves.....stops up oil filters,,,,,,,,burns bearings, no slick fifty is bad news. Kit

In defense of my statement, I was never a supporter of slick 50. Back in the day when the product was being pushed by everyone's next door neighbor, I generally scoffed at their "claims". I mentioned "slick 50" because it was the first thing that came to mind. (a testament of their advertising LOL). I did google it and was very suprised to find that it was manufactured by Quacker State, a company who's oil was always highly respected and widely used.

 

This thread is very interesting and it never ceases to amaze me the wealth of knowledge such threads can provide.

 

ps, do y'all like MY FONT?

 

[Guest KitCarson]

In defense of my statement, I was never a supporter of slick 50. Back in the day when the product was being pushed by everyone's next door neighbor, I generally scoffed at their "claims". I mentioned "slick 50" because it was the first thing that came to mind. (a testament of their advertising LOL). I did google it and was very suprised to find that it was manufactured by Quacker State, a company who's oil was always highly respected and widely used.

 

This thread is very interesting and it never ceases to amaze me the wealth of knowledge such threads can provide.

 

ps, do y'all like MY FONT?

 

 

Hi Rick: Hey have you ever seen the Duralube Demo? They take a lawn mower and put this additive in it and let it run for a bit. Then they make a big show out of draining all the oil.....leaving the oil plug out, and fire the lawn mower up and let it run. It runs, and runs and runs and runs some more!! Teflon is slick......no question about that, works great, I was impressed! Had to have some of that stuff!. Thing is once you learn about it, it is very misleading. With continued use it may and does separate from the oil suspension and will say......plug an oil port.......clog a filter(filters do have a bypass) settle in a small space in a bearing and cause it to burn.........It is slick.....sure is......long term use is what shows up the problems. In any event that is what the latest reports on this stuff say........I have never personally used it in a bike.......did use that Duralube in an old car.....do not know if it worked or not.....that was an old car....duct tape and silly cone...

 

Hey what the h......is a Font? I have even got out my Harley manuals,,,,thought it might be something to do with one of them......nope cannot find it anywhere. Done a search on motorcycles and Fonts....nothing........You will have to give me a hint about this one.:stirthepot: Take Care Kit

[Marcarl]

One difference between your lathe and an engine that comes to mind is the running temp and speed of the gears also maybe the back pressure. Ok that's two but what the heck, who's counting. Darn now that's three.

[Guest KitCarson]

One difference between your lathe and an engine that comes to mind is the running temp and speed of the gears also maybe the back pressure. Ok that's two but what the heck, who's counting. Darn now that's three.

Okay......bet you can't find 4 !! :rotf::stirthepot:. Tis great fun sometimes..........Will know a whole lot more in several weeks.......will have the so called I basket installed.......maybe, if it is like this clearview windshield might be a month from now. Take Care

[Denden]

So some of you have tried a different clutch basket-why do they call it a basket anyway? Just the main gear..........?

Kit

Why do they call it a "clutch basket"? I'm not sure where the name comes from, but maybe because it holds all the other clutch parts inside of it? Here's a picture of it, the big gear that goes around the outer edge is the one that causes the "chirp". The clearance between the clutch basket gear and the gear on the end of the crankshaft is the problem. The gear on the end of the crankshaft is visible in the second picture, just a small part of it can be seen at the edge of the opening.

My understanding is that too little clearance between these 2 gears will cause the "whine". Even with proper clearance, there will always be SOME whine because of the straight cut gears. But the chirp comes from one of the gears not being perfectly round...more or less clearance as the gears go around...(my opinion only)

AND...this is just my opinion...the worst whine comes from a harmonic vibration that sets up between the rear drive/transmission/clutch basket. Get the right combination of clearances and you get it QUIET.

By the way, my '01 RSV had the worst WHINE and CHIRP, that a Yamaha Regional Service rep had ever heard (that's what he told me). I had him test ride it while at a Star Days. He told me to take it to my local dealer and have them call him. After 3 weeks in the shop, and a long list of parts replaced, including 2 rear drives, a driveshaft, an axle and much more, my '01 RSV had NO WHINE and NO CHIRP whatsoever, it sounded like a motorcycle should sound. So it IS possible to repair the problem. It took a good dealer with knowledgable service techs...and a Yamaha Regional Service Tech goading them along.

Another "by the way"...some of the whine can be caused by the way the rear drive assembly is aligned with the bevel gear and u-joint of the motor...swing-arm bearings have something to do with this. Have you ever used string to check how the rear tire is aligned with the front tire?

[Guest KitCarson]

Why do they call it a "clutch basket"? I'm not sure where the name comes from, but maybe because it holds all the other clutch parts inside of it? Here's a picture of it, the big gear that goes around the outer edge is the one that causes the "chirp". The clearance between the clutch basket gear and the gear on the end of the crankshaft is the problem. The gear on the end of the crankshaft is visible in the second picture, just a small part of it can be seen at the edge of the opening.

My understanding is that too little clearance between these 2 gears will cause the "whine". Even with proper clearance, there will always be SOME whine because of the straight cut gears. But the chirp comes from one of the gears not being perfectly round...more or less clearance as the gears go around...(my opinion only)

AND...this is just my opinion...the worst whine comes from a harmonic vibration that sets up between the rear drive/transmission/clutch basket. Get the right combination of clearances and you get it QUIET.

By the way, my '01 RSV had the worst WHINE and CHIRP, that a Yamaha Regional Service rep had ever heard (that's what he told me). I had him test ride it while at a Star Days. He told me to take it to my local dealer and have them call him. After 3 weeks in the shop, and a long list of parts replaced, including 2 rear drives, a driveshaft, an axle and much more, my '01 RSV had NO WHINE and NO CHIRP whatsoever, it sounded like a motorcycle should sound. So it IS possible to repair the problem. It took a good dealer with knowledgable service techs...and a Yamaha Regional Service Tech goading them along.

Another "by the way"...some of the whine can be caused by the way the rear drive assembly is aligned with the bevel gear and u-joint of the motor...swing-arm bearings have something to do with this. Have you ever used string to check how the rear tire is aligned with the front tire?

See how a silly question can result in the answer? It is there......I am sure.....remember how I described a wagon wheel squeaking and the squeak or chirp would sound at the point of unbalance?(another post) Yes the clutch housing does look like a basket, with some tuning forks on the edge......but I have been researching this chirp....talking to everyone........have my bike set up to go through what you went through soon. They have a few under their belt........but you have I know without question hit the nail on the head......it is and I knew it was so simple......you hear this, you hear that......one idea after the other.....mis information.........but you come along and with what we all have learned about this............the very simple answer for the chirp is the clutch basket is out of round!! I really do not even have to think about that one......it makes so much common sense, out of round and at the point of unbalance it chirps, this is why the sound is not steady and is erratic. I was looking in the wrong direction....trying too hard.........Yep I agree..........the basket is out of round. Thanks.........one little bit of info....will come from somewhere and one knows instantly it is correct. Kit

 

If this for sure ends up being the real deal......you should be given the credit for this.....I have never heard anyone say the clutch basket is out of round....heard a lot of nonsense about revisions, and gears cut differently.......this little bit of information....I can sense with all that I have learned and done in the last month.....this is it. No on and I mean no one, has considered this......not one person. Kit

 

Hey what you doing showing us a picture of a 1st Gen.......I have a 2nd gen.........and I am just teasing......Thanks Kit

[Neil86]

As Denden points out the chirp can be caused by an out of round component........the problem lies in the fact there are two gears (actually 3 if you consider the balancer shaft) meshing...the clutch basket is the easy attempt at repair....if its the crankshaft gear its a r & r and a total case split.