Dyna Beads = Wasted Money

[midnite]

Okay, here's my 2cents. I've drove and worked on semi's, autos and bikes for years. Changed a couple thousand tires. Centramatics work. Anytime you add a foriegn object into the interior of a tire, it will eat at the lining of that tire. May be ceramic beads but after they bang around a while they will have sharp edges that will do damage to the tire. Also after some of that banging around a dust will form inside tire, so when you check the air you have to be real careful as theis dust can hang in the valve core producing a slight leak. Check them very carefully. Seen way to many blowouts because of underinflated tires, due to dust or trash hanging the core and leaking the tire down. I'll go back to my corner now.

[pegscraper]

A liquid inside of a spinning object will find its own balance, and it will balance an otherwise out of balance object. Go back and ask your high school physics teacher. The principle works.

 

Dyna Beads inside a tire will operate on this principle, but I've wondered about them not moving freely enough, creating dimples inside the tire and not going where they should, and other such things.

 

I'd like to see that youtube Dyna Beads test done with water inside the bottle instead of the beads just for comparison. Maybe I'll just rig up a way to do that myself.

 

There are unanswered variables in MCN's test and I didn't witness it, so it's not valid. MCN's test proves nothing. Period.

 

Who here has heard of the shade tree hot rodder's method of shortening a driveshaft for a custom built car? Cut it to length, throw two or three quarts of oil in it, weld it back together and call it done and balanced. Can't say I recommend that, but it's undoubtedly been done.

 

Want to support yourself in retirement? Produce another stupid movie like Avatar. I could wish I had come up with that one.

[GaryZ]

I worked for Petro Stopping Centers for 9 years and we sold Centramatic balancers. I know they did work. They were bolted on between the wheel and the drum and used steel shoot to balance the tire. I always recommended to customers to have an initial mechanical balance when the tire was first installed. Most of my customers had very few out of balance issues over the life of tires (100,000-150,000 miles)if they followed my advice and used the Centramatics.

 

And now I need to thank you for making me look up Centramatics website because they now offer tire balancers for Honda Goldwings.

 

They even have a neat little video showing how it works.

 

http://www.centramatic.com/Home.aspx

 

I checked this web page and found the kit for the Goldwing is $249.95 !!!

[dragerman]

Thanks for the analogy, but I'm not sure it's a good comparison. A dryer just tumbles clothes.

The washer is a better comparison, but it just senses out of balance. If so, it slows to tumble the clothes and get them re-oriented. It will do this until the level of unbalance is acceptable, then go to spin. But it does not balance the load. In other words, as the washer spins up, the clothes do not align themselves inside to achieve balance. At best, the unbalance will settle out a little as water is wrung out of the clothes and they become lighter.

I'm a little uncertain how these beads can align themselves to the lite side of an unbalanced tire. Perhaps Condor is right, Mirrors and Mojo.

Yes, you're right Vance. Actually I meant to say a front load "washer". I was referring to how it aligns and balances the cloths before it spins.

[tsigwing]

I know lots of members here seem to like the Dyna Beads for tire balance. In general, I am not a fan of adding ANYTHING to my tires except air, but I have never joined that discussion since I didn't have any real information or first hand experience with the product.

 

Well, now I have some info that I thought I would share in the hopes of maybe helping a few members here not waste their money. I am a huge believer in Motorcycle Consumer News - I won't go into all the reasons why at this time, but I have great faith in their testing and opinions. The following comes from their answer to a letter asking about Dyna Beads in the February 2010 issue:

 

" MCN evaluated the Dyna Beads on a reader's suggestion back in October of 2006. Although the tiny white ceramic beads have apparently found favor with long-haul truckers, we tested them in a Honda 599. Using a shop's spin balancer, we checked the bike's rear wheel, which had 1.6 oz. of balance weights in place. The balancer agreed with the amount and location of the weights. After installing the specified two ounces of beads in the rear tire and then removing the rim weights, the balancer found an out of balance condition. This test was repeated five times and the balancer continued to call for the replacement of the 1.6 oz. of rim weights in the same location. Over-the-road testing was next. Without the rim weights, the rear wheel produced noticeable vibration and the installation of the beads gave a barely perceptible improvement. Also, the weight of the beads added so close to the tire tread gave a noticeable increase in gyro stability, making the steering heavier. We also tried them on a car and were disappointed. Bottom line: Save your money for a proper spin balance."

 

Goose

 

 

they work for me quite well. removed the stock weights for both the front and rear tires at the last replacement and put in the dynabeads. no vibration on either the front or rear. YMMV

 

check out this video, for what its worth [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq263AYgyYg]YouTube- DynaBeads demo video by Evolution Cycles[/ame]

Edited January 27, 2010 by tsigwing
added link to video

[1 Canuck]

I didn't start this thread with the intention of goring anybody's favorite ox, but I just cannot control it now . . . I am blown away at the number of people who seem to be so willing to just blindly accept the manufacturer's claim that even though they know a spin balancer will effectively prove these beads do nothing, everyone should just ignore that and blindly accept their assurances that they are really good things!

 

So I now know how I am going to support myself in retirement.

 

Offering now: Mauser's Magic Ballancing Dust! I will sell you 5 oz at half the price for 2oz of Dyna Beads, and I will provide a money-back guarantee that it will provide 100% of all the benefits of Dyna Beads (provided that the buyer can provide any tangible evidence whatsoever of such benefits). The major benefit of Mauser's Magic Balancing Dust, besides being 1/2 price of Dyna Beads, is that no installation is needed at all - just dump the bag of magic dust on your tire and enjoy the ride! (mojo included for free - buyer provides his or her own mirrors)

 

Place your orders now!

Goose

 

I've never used Dyna Beads nor do plan on using them. But I do want to see the MSDS on the "Mauser's Magic Ballancing Dust", first!

[Wanderer]

I didn't start this thread with the intention of goring anybody's favorite ox, but I just cannot control it now . . . I am blown away at the number of people who seem to be so willing to just blindly accept the manufacturer's claim that even though they know a spin balancer will effectively prove these beads do nothing, everyone should just ignore that and blindly accept their assurances that they are really good things!

 

So I now know how I am going to support myself in retirement.

 

Offering now: Mauser's Magic Ballancing Dust! I will sell you 5 oz at half the price for 2oz of Dyna Beads, and I will provide a money-back guarantee that it will provide 100% of all the benefits of Dyna Beads (provided that the buyer can provide any tangible evidence whatsoever of such benefits). The major benefit of Mauser's Magic Balancing Dust, besides being 1/2 price of Dyna Beads, is that no installation is needed at all - just dump the bag of magic dust on your tire and enjoy the ride! (mojo included for free - buyer provides his or her own mirrors)

 

Place your orders now!

Goose

 

Not only did you gore my ox, you never even took the time to know my ox. You took the word of someone else that my ox was no good. That's O.K. though, I have many oxen. You may even have an ox or two of your own. I would not suggest that you blindly accepted the previous owner's (manufacturer's) claims that the ox was of benefit to you, but rather you gave that ox a try before you brought it home to stay.

 

I'm just saying.

[Condor]

Not only did you gore my ox, you never even took the time to know my ox. You took the word of someone else that my ox was no good. That's O.K. though, I have many oxen. You may even have an ox or two of your own. I would not suggest that you blindly accepted the previous owner's (manufacturer's) claims that the ox was of benefit to you, but rather you gave that ox a try before you brought it home to stay.

 

I'm just saying.

 

[FreezyRider]

I read MCN nearly every month (a friend passes on his mags to me). Love the magazine, and mostly respect what they do.

That said, I have "taken issue" with some of the response that they give to readers in their tech section. They have told people to never use any weight motor oil other than what the manufacturer recommends. They have told people to never run a synthetic motor oil or rear end oil unless the manufacturer recommends that. How many of you violate those recommendations. Any of you nay-sayers about DynaBeads running any oil, brake fluid, air filters, oil filters, horns, tires, etc other than what the mfg recommends? MCN seems to have issue with what you are doing if that is the case.

 

As far as I am concerned, MCN is free to express those opinions. And I can understand why they may do so, to some degree. If they recommended that you use a 5w-40 synthetic when the mfg recommends 10w-40 dino oil, some lunatic would probably sue MCN if they ran a different oil and then had any engine problem.

 

I personally don't think it is too wise for me to bash a product that I have had no experience with. I hate the taste of rashly spoken words.

[V7Goose]

I read MCN nearly every month (a friend passes on his mags to me). Love the magazine, and mostly respect what they do.

That said, I have "taken issue" with some of the response that they give to readers in their tech section. They have told people to never use any weight motor oil other than what the manufacturer recommends. They have told people to never run a synthetic motor oil or rear end oil unless the manufacturer recommends that. How many of you violate those recommendations. Any of you nay-sayers about DynaBeads running any oil, brake fluid, air filters, oil filters, horns, tires, etc other than what the mfg recommends? MCN seems to have issue with what you are doing if that is the case.

 

As far as I am concerned, MCN is free to express those opinions. And I can understand why they may do so, to some degree. If they recommended that you use a 5w-40 synthetic when the mfg recommends 10w-40 dino oil, some lunatic would probably sue MCN if they ran a different oil and then had any engine problem.

 

I personally don't think it is too wise for me to bash a product that I have had no experience with. I hate the taste of rashly spoken words.

Hmmmmmm, I read every issue of MCN too (and I actually PAY for my subscription, so I get them all), and I don't recall seeing any of those objectionable items that you reference. Perhaps I just don't pay attention, or maybe those mentioned here are taken out of context and may not have been objectionable at all when considered with all the information? I'll never know, I guess. But the good thing is that we are both free to consider any information and decide to agree with it or not. Personally, from what I read about Dyna Beads, and analyzing that with my own logic and various experiences, I am now convinced the product is a waste of money. No need for anyone to agree with me - I just wanted everyone to have an opportunity to consider the same information. That is why I actually typed in the entire quote instead of just repeating the basic information.

 

Oh, on the oil issue, MCN has been the ONLY motorcycle pub that I know of which as done very extensive testing of most available name brands of oils, both motorcycle AND car oils, including scientific lab analysis of multiple samples, and published the information specifically to help motorcycle riders actually make an informed and hopefully intelligent decision on what oils to use! They have done this several times over the years, and I absolutely do not believe they have ever provided blanket advice to not use synthetic oil unless it was recommended by the manufacturer. As with other things, you probably shold not believe everything you read, whether it is in MCN or here!

Goose

[FreezyRider]

As with other things, you probably shold not believe everything you read, whether it is in MCN or here!

Goose

 

And I can absolutely agree with that statement!

[zagger]

I have been wrestling with front end shaking in one of my bikes. I put on a new tire, had it spin balanced the usual way and the problem got better for awhile and then gradually became worse and worse. I tinkered with the lead weights with little effect and began to believe that the tire must be out of round. Even though I had quite a bit of tread remaining, I ordered a new front tire and decided to experiment with the old one before taking it off. Somewhere I came across the Innovative Balancing Dyna Bead product and did my "due diligence" online in various forums. The posts on Venture Rider nearly convinced me that the beads were useless but based on my experience with a similar idea for balancing wooden airplane props (beads and oil inside of a metal tubular assembly), I decided to give the Dyna Beads a try.

 

I put 2 oz of beads into the troublesome front tire, removed all lead weights, and hit the road. All I can say is "WOW"! Smooth as silk, all shaking gone, bike corners much better without all the shimmy and shake. I decided to keep the old tire on and use up the remaining tread before installing the new one I bought. After this experience I replaced the worn out rear tire and skipped the spin balance and went straight to using the beads. Super smooth ride with zero shaking.

 

I distrust all forum BS endorsements like the one I just wrote since the writer is often prejudiced by the fact that they just spent money on something and will swear it is wonderful no matter what. As a physicist I wanted a good explanation for why the beads actually do work. I came across a nice explanation on the Practical Machinist website which I have edited for your enjoyment.

 

Explanation:

Try the following thought experiment: take a wheel that has serious imbalance - let us say that the true center of mass is 3 inches from the geometric center of the wheel. If this tire is spun freely (lets say by tossing it into the air and spinning it) it will rotate about its center of mass. That point is a point displaced 3 inches TOWARDS the heavy side of the wheel. Therefore the heavy side describes a radius 3 inches less than the light side. It is just like the Moon orbiting the Earth. They actually orbit each other about the common center of mass, with the heavier Earth traveling a much shorter radius than the lighter Moon.

 

Now mount the wheel on a very light, very loosely sprung axle. The spinning wheel will try to spin just as is did before - about its center of mass - forcing the axle to to move in a 3 inch circular path. Note that the heavy side of the wheel is still traveling a shorter radius than the light side.

 

Now stiffen up the springs holding the axle in place. Things get a lot more complicated because it depends on how stiff the springs are, the relative mass of the components, damping factors etc. -BUT- the center of rotation is still displaced towards the heavy side of the wheel. It will be somewhere along the line between the axle center and the original center of mass of the wheel. And the heavy side will still describe the shorter radius.

 

Going back to our wheel spinning freely in space, add some ball bearings inside. They are constrained only to lie somewhere on the circumference of the tire. They will congregate towards the largest radius, that being their lowest energy state in the free body system. In doing so they will change the center of mass of the system (and its center of rotation), if they are heavy enough they will distribute themselves in such a way that there is no larger radius to flee to - and your wheel is balanced about its geometric center. Note that this depends on the tire being round - if it is out of round (so the axle is not at the geometric center of the circle) then the wheel will not balance as we define the term.

 

 

Hopefully this is an adequate response to the folks who wonder how the beads "know where to go" in order to balance the wheel. They are just moving to the lowest energy state, like a ball "knows" to roll to the bottom of a hill.

 

I rarely post and I have never recommended trying anything to other riders. However, I have come to the conclusion that a lot of handling problems we all experience from time to time may be caused by out of balance tires. Even tires that have received a professional balancing job seem to get out of balance as they wear - and who goes through the trouble of taking them off to balance multiple times? The shop I go to told me that the beads are junk and don't work and they "know" because they tried a wheel with beads on their spin balancer. Unfortunately, this test will give the wrong answer. Spin balancers are designed to rotate the wheel as slowly as possible (for safety reasons) for as short a time as possible (for economic reasons). The slow rotating speed and short time means that the beads do not have time to move out to the balanced condition. Everytime the wheel stops, the beads end up in a pile at the bottom of the tire. When you ride off, it takes a perhaps a few seconds for the beads to orient themselves properly to balance the wheel. You cannot feel this happening because the tire rotation is too slow to cause shaking. By the time you get up to speed the balance has been achieved and everything feels fine. The spin balancer test is done too quickly to establish the balanced condition and both my shop and the motorcycle magazine mentioned in earlier posts came to the wrong conclusion.

 

I will now go quiet again. Over and out.

zag

[dynodon]

I am going to try the beads. My '04 Wing has a handling problem that now three different dealers can't or won't address. I wanted the new Kuryakyn fork brace, and adding the beads got me free shipping and the beads wound up costing about $8! So why not try it.

 

I do have a problem with one comment from that MCN test. They said:"Also, the weight of the beads added so close to the tire tread gave a noticeable increase in gyro stability, making the steering heavier"

 

Regular weights are within about 3-4 inches of the inside of the tread on a tire that is what? about 26" tall? I can't believe that 2 oz of beads distributed around the inside of a tire/wheel combo that weighs what? 30 pounds? (I haven 't weighed one, so I am guessing, it is a LOT more than the beads) when you can have 1-2 or 3 or more ounces of wheel weights at one spot.

 

Anyway, I will try them and see if they help. My front tire seems to have a slight out of round condition (new E3 with about 2000 miles on it) that I can feel when riding. If the beads help any at all, it will be worth the $8!

[Sylvester]

I have had the dyna beads in front and rear on my 02 Venture since April and have put 10k on it. Absolutely flawless and smooth. I am very pleased with them. My dealer is now using them instead of weights.

 

[zagger]

>>I do have a problem with one comment from that MCN test. They said:"Also, the weight of the beads added so close to the tire tread gave a noticeable increase in gyro stability, making the steering heavier"

 

Some things are just so stupid ya gotta wonder. As I remember from my front end project, the entire front wheel with disks on my '83 Venture weighs 35 lbs. A new front tire all by itself weighs about 15 lbs. Adding 2 oz to the existing total of 560 oz or to 240 oz (if you just consider the tire) is only an addition of 0.3% to 0.8% depending on what total weight you use. Notice the gyroscopic effect? Sounds like the princess and the pea. Nevermind the obvious point that lead weights added to the rim create the same weighting effect since the job of balancing the wheel requires enough weight to offset the initial imbalance of the tire. Therefore, weights on the rim have to be larger than weights placed 3 or 4 inches further out (inside the tire) and would produce a similar gyro effect. Although it seems completely trivial, you may use more bead weight than is actually required for the balancing job. If you don't spin balance the wheel, you really can only guess on the weight of beads to add. You could certainly start with 1 oz and see what you think and add more if it seems necessary. I just put 2 oz in every tire since the effort of jacking up the bike (no center stand on my beast) outweighs the cost and hassle of just adding another oz of beads. If you wanted to be really precise, just have a new tire installed in a shop and have them spin balance and tell you what weight the machine calculates. Assuming they keep the machine calibrated (a big assumption) you can add the same weight in beads and skip the lead weights. The advantage of beads is that they continue to keep the tire balanced thoughout its life, regardless of wear. I guess motorcycle magazines must employ english majors to do the testing and analysis - they obviously are lost in the weeds or just enjoy making stuff up. Or maybe Innovative Balancing forgot to enclose a $20 bill with the beads shipped to the magazine!

 

I should add to this discussion that getting the Dyna Beads down the valve stem can be a real pain. The '83 Venture valve stems must have an abnormally small inside diameter since the beads constantly jammed up and it took patience and the vibrating tip of an engraver (point ground off) to get the little buggers in. My Honda Saber was much easier and the 90 degree valve stem was actually the easiest since tapping on the outside of the curved stem just shot the beads right in. A better system to get them down the valve stem needs to be designed.

 

BTW - don't bother ordering the filtered tire valves from Innovative Balancing. They are too long for motorcycle valve stems - at least that is true on my bikes. Although the risk of getting a bead caught in the tire valve (giving a big leak) seems pretty small since the beads will come to rest in a pile on the low side of the tire, I've decided that I will always position the valve on the low side and shoot in a little compressed air before checking tire pressure just to make sure that nothing is going to get caught in the valve. I guess that valve leaks must have happened since Innovative Balancing went to the trouble to source the filtered valves - I cannot add any actual experience to this issue.

 

Now I will shut up.

zag

Edited September 18, 2010 by zagger

[LilBeaver]

Hijack alert!

 

First of all, great write up and it sounds like you had a reasonable test.

Good to know there is another physicist out there

 

...

I guess motorcycle magazines must just employ english majors to do the testing and analysis - they obviously are lost in the weeds or just enjoy making stuff up. Or maybe Innovative Balancing forgot to enclose a $20 bill with the beads shipped to the magazine!

...

 

It has been a long time since I have paid any attention any of these 'professional' reviews for the same reasons. Most of the time they seem to end up being a colossal waste of resources and my time. They ARE, however, typically rather well written.

 

Hijack over, please return to your normal programming.

[67mini67]

I put new tire on the bike this summer and went with the Dyna beads. The recommendation was 2oz in the front and 3oz int rear. I started there but found that there was still a vibration in the front. I added 1oz more to the front and has been very smooth ever since. I am convinced.

[CaptainJoe]

Its like water in a pail...

 

If you have a tire that is not perfectly round... the beads would (logically) congreate in that one spot.

If the tire were "perfectly round" this congereation point would be random... But it still would occur at the furtherest point from its axis...

 

 

I just don't see where this has anything at all to do with the fact that a "tire/wheel/rotor" unit can be out of balance for a number of reasons.

 

The wheel can and probably does have a heavy spot, perhaps from drilling out the valve stem, and/or, the rotor is out of balance, and/or, the tire itself may have a little more or less cord/rubber in spots...

 

In an eggshell, if somethings spinning around a fixed, unmovable axis in a perfect circle and the rotor has a heavy spot. How can the beads help?

 

I believe the beads probably do help with the feel of a bike, perhaps, due to gyroscopic forces. I however do not believe the beads alone, can completly balance a "tire/wheel/rotor unit" by themselves..

 

[Condor]

 

in an eggshell, if somethings spinning around a fixed, unmovable axis in a perfect circle and the rotor has a heavy spot. How can the beads help?

 

magic !!!!

[CaptainJoe]

Condor...

 

Pegscrapper... I'd like to se the test done with an unfreezable liquid... Water would get interesting in the winter:whistling:

 

Although I'd still want the wheel weights in place and unit balanced before adding the 2 or 3 ounces of antifreeze...errrrrrr.... Joes Dynafluid ?

I will be selling it for $20 an ounce... errrrrrrr.... for my retirement...

Edited September 19, 2010 by CaptainJoe

[zagger]

"In an eggshell, if somethings spinning around a fixed, unmovable axis in a perfect circle and the rotor has a heavy spot. How can the beads help?"

 

Your bike wheels have a "fixed, unmovable axis"? How do you figure that? No suspension?

zag

[CaptainJoe]

The tires spinning on an axel that is not pivoting around on one end like that plastic pop bottle video....

[zagger]

Condor...

 

Pegscrapper... I'd like to se the test done with an unfreezable liquid... Water would get interesting in the winter:whistling:

 

Although I'd still want the wheel weights in place and unit balanced before adding the 2 or 3 ounces of antifreeze...errrrrrr.... Joes Dynafluid ?

I will be selling it for $20 an ounce... errrrrrrr.... for my retirement...

 

Can't see any reason why a fluid wouldn't work except that water/antifreeze is much less dense than the beads and therefore 2 oz would take up more space inside the tire. Certainly would be easier to get into the valve stem! But there is also air inside the tire - giving problems when the water dries up and leaves just humid air inside the tire. Maybe mercury is the answer. A little messy at tire change time - but that is not my problem.

zag

Edited September 19, 2010 by zagger

[zagger]

The tires spinning on an axel that is not pivoting around on one end like that plastic pop bottle video....

The point is: your axles are not fixed and unmovable. And neither is the rest of the bike. A spinning out of balance wheel causes the suspension to compress/extend and that loading is transmitted to the frame of the bike and to you, the rider. Every part of the bike, including you, move up and down with the wheel motion. That is the shaking you feel. And that motion is what moves the beads. If you mounted the unbalanced wheel to solid steel posts mounted in 10 tons of concrete the out of balance condition would still exist but the resulting amplitude of vibration would be much less - not zero but much less. In this situation the beads would not find the light side of the wheel (the point furthest out from the center of rotation) because the amplitude of the off-axis motion would be too small.

 

In fact, the beads can never totally balance any wheel. As the beads start arriving on the light side of the tire, the amplitude of the vibration is reduced and the forces propelling the beads to that location go lower and lower. Eventually the amplitude of vibration is so small that the beads don't move anymore. As the rider, you would conclude that the wheel is now balanced. However, it is only balanced to the extent that the bead motion has stopped - a slight out of balance condition still exists. Of course, how is this any different than a spin balancing machine? The machine has a measurement resolution limited by the sensing system and the electronics. In other words, it cannot detect microscopic imbalances. The mechanic does not have an infinite choice of lead weights. The weights come in specific sizes and he must choose the "best match" for balancing the wheel - leaving a slight imbalance that cannot be fixed by his selection of weights. The design of the wheel may limit the locations for attaching the weights causing further complications. The early venture cast wheels have 3 "spokes" which block clip-on weights from being attached in that area. And the valve stem area is another place where clip-ons don't work. Stick on weights have less restriction on mounting locations but they are off-center unless you spread the weights onto both sides of the wheel.

 

There is no "perfect" solution for balancing a wheel other than to make all of the components (wheel, disks, tire, etc) perfectly balanced to start with. You would also need a zero-wear tire so that nothing changes as you put on the miles. I know! How about a solid steel wheel (no tire) machined to be perfectly balanced and hardened so that it cannot wear down! Don't take corners too aggressively!

zag

[CaptainJoe]

"There is no "perfect" solution for balancing a wheel other than to make all of the components (wheel, disks, tire, etc) perfectly balanced to start with."

 

 

 

 

Now theres a concept.... Make quality parts to begin with...