Starter Clutch Mod

[Dano]

I am pleased to announce for our VR members a starter clutch mod that will last forever and put an end to that "Clunkety-clunk" that you hear when your starter clutch is going bad. I will let Squeeze explain it much better than I ever could:

 

The stock Starter Clutch is a one Way Clutch which uses three spring loaded Rollers the connect to the big 72th Gear Wheel which is the last Gear in the line of several Gears coming from the Stater Motor.

 

These 3 Rollers connect (in Fact they run) to the inner Area of the Wheel by spring Force and clamping Force. This whole Assembly sits in a Housing which is bolted to the Flywheel with 3 Bolt in M8 Thread. Over Time, these Bolts tend to get a little bit loose plus the Rollers and the Surface they're running at develop some flat Spots and chattering Marks too.

 

This is the common Scenario where the Problem starts to get heard.

 

If the Battery is cold and/or isn't in the best Shape anymore, the Rollers can't "bite" strong enough to the connecting Area and the Clutch lets go for a half a Turn. If The Rollers bite on a chattering Mark or a flat Spot the Connection they may hold on or let loose again. This Movement creates the hammering Sound and puts a Lot of more Force on the loose Bolts. This, of Course, allows even more uncontrolled Movement of the Clutch Assembly and a even more dysfunctional Clutch. As an nasty Side Effect, the Clutch can, and i know of two Cases where it actually did, cause the Starter to act as an Generator because the One Way Clutch wasn't a Clutch anymore but a solid Connection. This caused the Starter Motor to burn down on both Cases. I suspect a Lot more of these Cases, but there's not enough reliable Data for me to make a final Call.

 

I've seen a Lot of these Clutches and not one of them was even partially reusable. I have Buddies which tried to reuse some Parts, but they did the Job twice or even three Times in the End. I know a Bunch of Guys with heavily modified Engines, meaning 1500 cc Vmaxxes at least, and each and everybody of them had their Share of Head Ache in this Regard. The Record Holder of those is the Guy with a 1600 cc High Compression Motor who needed three complete Starter Clutch Assemblies each Season.

 

So, in the End, you have two Options to get the Job done

 

First Option is to buy a complete Set of new Parts, not just the small Set of Rollers, Springs, Caps, but also three Bolts, the Housing and the 72th Wheel, mount the Assembly exactly in centered Position to the Fly Wheel, red Loctite the Threads of the Bolts and don't forget to punch the End of Threads with a Center Punch. Then cross your Fingers, say a Prayer or both and hit the Starter Button after completing the Install. Feel good about the cheap (around 185 Bucks for the Parts) Repair but you need to keep the Procedure in Mind, because most likely you'll do that again some Time later.

 

Or

 

Second Option

 

Send your Rotor over to Dano in a 12x10x5 Inch Package, get it back with the Gaskets (optional), don't worry about having the Clutch Assembly mounted exactly centered to the Flywheel, just mount the Rotor and the new 72th Wheel and have a good Time while being a happy Camper.

 

This is because Dano will mount a much more sophisticated Clutch Assembly, which uses 18 Ellipses instead of three Rollers. The Ellipsis are spring loaded too and because of their Shape, not only bite at the 72th Wheel, but lock up the Connection between Rotor and 72th Wheel. Because of the ellipsoid Design, you won't need to worry about burning down your Starter Motor. I sure you weren't worried about that before, but it's good to be sure anyway. Not to mention, getting the Flywheel off the Crank Shaft can be a ... well ... how do it say this ... pita ...

 

Yes, this Upgrade is more expensive than Option 1 and it will need a little bit more of Downtime because of the Transit Times of the Parcel. But you'll be a happy Camper and never think about the Starter Clutch Issue again. Oh, except maybe the Times somebody tells you his 1Gen or Vmax produces a hammering Sound upon starting ...

 

Squeeze

 

 

Now for the nitty-gritty. All you need to do is remove your flywheel/rotor, send it and a check for $275.00 (US, VR discount and return shipping included, Canada shipping a bit more) to me and a couple of days later I will return it to you with the starter clutch mod already mounted ready to go back on your bike. You will also need to get the 2 left side cover gaskets and crush washer for the lower bolt on the middle gear cover. If you would like me to supply them, an additional $15.00 will be added ($290.00 total US). If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to PM me or call me at 317-370-0139 anytime and I'll be happy to discuss it with you.

 

An additional note here for non-members wishing this mod- Price will be $295 US, gaskets priced the same.

 

Dan

 

Shipping address:

 

Dan Obert

8699 W 800 N

Indianapolis, In 46259-9402

 

Paypal & email addy: danob11@comcast.net

__________________

Edited January 23, 2010 by Dano
Gasket option added

[Snaggletooth]

Now that is a Public Service Annoucment!

 

I've been talking to Squeeze and Dano on this for a while and from what info I've been given it looks like the cure all, end all for the starter clutch problems. The design is way beyond what the bikes currently use. When Squeeze says it "Locks", no doubt in my mind that is a true statement.

 

I've had two engage clutches fail in two years and have only been waiting fore weather to warm up enough to pull the rotor on mine again and have this mod done. Looking forward to no more rattling clutch and slipping on the 72 tooth gear.

 

Mike

Edited January 21, 2010 by Snaggletooth

[Dano]

BUMP

[Flyinfool]

In the description written by Squeeze it says that the gaskets will come with the new starter clutch. In your nitty-gritty you mention that I will have to get the gaskets and a crush washer.

 

Are the gaskets and/or crush washer included or must I source them?

 

This is the first mention of the crush washer that I have seen, which part is it?

[Snaggletooth]

The gaskets you will need are:

 

Front cover: 3JP-15451-00-00

 

Rear cover: 26H-15461-00-00

 

Crush gasket: 90430-06014-00

 

The front and rear gaskets are needed for sure. The crush washer (gasket) is on the bolt in the 6 o'clock position on the rear cover. IT MUST be in that position as that bolt allows some oil drainage when loosened or the washer is bad.

 

I have reused mine several times with no problems with a simple cleaning and a light buff to make sure it's smooth. A new one is a good bet.

 

Rick at Buckeye Performance can set you up with the parts.

 

Contact him though his web site:

http://www.buckeyeperformance.com/

[Dano]

I have edited the original post to show that OEM gaskets and crush washer are available for $15 if you would like them shipped with your starter clutch mod.

 

Thanks everybody

 

Dan

[Flyinfool]

Now we just need a shipping address and info.

 

I just ran into some cash last night that will go into my starter.

 

I need to figure out how to get this thing apart, no I have not even looked in the service manual of even at the bike yet. Anything that does not move real often tends to get buried quickly. I have to dig my way down to the bike so that I can work on it.

 

Thanks

[Dano]

Jeff, I will be glad to do the mod for you when you are ready, but please give me a PM when you are ready to take it out, that way I will make sure I have the parts available when your rotor arrives. I will edit the original post to add the shipping address for everybody. Make sure you let me know if you want the gasket kit or not. I can also accept Paypal if that's the way you would like to go for payment.

 

I know how it is with buried projects, that 87 I'm doing is now behind the bench..........

[Dano]

Just added note for non-member purchases

[jasonm.]

Maybe I missed it. But what engine is this clutch assembly from? possibly a 2nd gen machine?

[Snaggletooth]

Well here we go Dano.........mine is on the way to you.

[mbrood]

If the "crush washer" you reference is that copper washer... copper gets hard over time from "working"... you can hold it over a good flame (gas kitchen stove is excellent) until it glows dull (not quite cherry) red and then let it air cool... this anneals it and makes it soft and ready for another go. This can be repeated and repeated.

[6m459]

Well I for one would like to see a photo of the parts involved in this non OEM setup.

 

Brian H.

[Snaggletooth]

Hey Brian,

 

Mine goes under the knife tonight for the mod to the new engage clutch. I've sent a message to the creator of this lil gem, Squeeze, to get his permission to post pics of the unit when I get mine back and do the install.

 

What it basically consists of is installing a multi-element sprag clutch into the rotor along with a heavier 72 tooth gear. The sprag clutch has been around a long time and used in many industial and automotive applications. The one he has developed uses 19 element, spring loaded elepitical sprags compared to our 3 roller set up. I know that Aprilia uses them.....I don't know which models have them.

 

This site may explain a little more about how sprags work.

 

http://www.gmnbt.com/freewheel_technology.htm

 

So I will share what info I can as this progresses. Myself.......seriously looking forward to this mod. I'm just trashed my second stock one and the PO went through two himself over the years.

 

Mike

[Squeeze]

Well Mike, of Course you can post Pics if you like to. I've posted one or the other in previous Threads Months ago. There's not so much to see. The "Technology" is hidden inside the Clutch Assembly and you can't get in there. You should not dismount the Clutch from the Rotor, because this would need to recenter on re-assembly and this won't happen without the right Tools and the Caliber. I'm looking forward to hear you being a happy Camper again.

 

Regarding the heritage of the new Parts. Honestly, it's not important where they come from. A long Time ago, i started fixing the dreaded stock Starter Clutch and every Time while i was doing that, i learned new Vocabulary and thought about finding a better Solution for this Disease. I've seen them all, literally, and the ugliest View i ever saw was an annealing blue Hub on the 72th Wheel.

 

Well, to make a long Story shorter, after Months of ongoing investigating and research, i found the Solution. I modded my '99 Max first and Months later my '93 VR. I told a Buddy about it. He's hot rodding Maxxes and was all interested in the Mod and sent me a Flywheel off a 1500 cc Engine immediately. He was very pleased with the Outcome and Things took off from there. That was more than two Years ago and more than three Years after I've done my Max. Today, I've done a Lot of Rotors from all over Europe and from all Kind of V4's with zero negative Feedback, and as arrogant as i can be at Times, i don't expect any. Because those heavily modified Engines are not only mean Tire shredding Machines but also murderous on the Starter Clutch. The Mod on the 1600cc High-Compression Motor shut the Battery down upon starting. It took a fresh 25 Ah Battery to got that Motor turned. If the new Setup will take those "Abuses", it's a bullet proof Solution for everybody.

 

But while doing the Mods, i realized, this is not a Job for an average Wrencher, working in his Garage or small Shop at Home. At first, it took me Hours just to get one Rotor done. After developing a new Strategy and other Tools and Caliber, i had it down to a reasonable Amount of Time without using my NC Mill. But the Tools, Caliber and such cost some Money and are for no use other than doing this Job.

 

The "average" Wrenchers also shouldn't worry about doing Things right but expect a real Solution, not a Jigsaw Puzzle of Parts and special Tools with no other use, tinkering with four or five Pages of downloaded Instructions and Proceedings.

 

In the End, this is what we figured out and what's the Offer here. A complete, ready to mount Solution. Be assured, no one is screwed when ordering the Mod, neither Dano or i myself make a Fortune out of it. The Price is reasonable and fair and that's just it. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Flyinfool]

Well I got the flywheel off yesterday.

Man that thing comes off hard and with a bang, The bang was loud enough to startle me, not to mention that the flywheel and puller go flying at a pretty good clip. But I did manage to hang on to it so it did not hit the floor anything else. I have never had to crank that hard on a puller for anything before.

 

The clutch surface of the 72th gear is really chewed up and the rollers are no longer round.

 

Dano, Look for mine in the mail, it should ship Monday or Tuesday once I find a box strong enough to keep it inside.

[Dano]

Sounds good Jeff, I warned you about having a soft place to land! I will be doing Snaggles mod this afternoon, shipping out Tuesday.

 

As Squeeze has said, this is more about a final solution (same as the second gear fix) to a problem than an income producing move, I can make more by going out and doing an electrical job than I can doing this, if you add up the amount of hours and time involved. This is the same approach I use in working on someone elses bike. I helped out Big Dude in getting his middle gear drivetrain problem fixed, which included more than a few weekends out at his place, along with tearing out the motor and splitting the cases to effect the repair for a very modest sum. I would do this for anyone here, its more about the bikes than income producing. If I wanted that I would open up a repair shop and do it full time.

 

Look forward to receiving your rotor Jeff, make sure you send that washer along with the rotor. Should fit into a medium flat rate USPS box for shipping. Let me know if you want the gaskets too.

 

Dan

[Flyinfool]

Well I got the flywheel off yesterday.

Man that thing comes off hard and with a bang, The bang was loud enough to startle me, not to mention that the flywheel and puller go flying at a pretty good clip. But I did manage to hang on to it so it did not hit the floor anything else. I have never had to crank that hard on a puller for anything before.

 

The clutch surface of the 72th gear is really chewed up and the rollers are no longer round.

 

Dano, Look for mine in the mail, it should ship Monday or Tuesday once I find a box strong enough to keep it inside.

[Dano]

Wow, an exact duplicate reply to one posted 2 1/2 hours ago. The magic of the internet!

[Flyinfool]

Hmmmmmm..... don't know how the post doubled a couple of hours apart.

 

I cheated, I tied a line from the puller to the frame above the flywheel so that when it popped it could not go anywhere.

 

Which "that washer" are you referring to?

Do you need the springs and rollers?

 

I do need the gaskets and crush washer.

[Dano]

The washer is between the old starter clutch and the rotor, if you've separated those two.

 

Gaskets and washer, done.

[Snaggletooth]

Hey Flyinfool,

 

You should have been around my place a couple of years ago when I pulled the rotor off the first time. After an afternoon of a lot of effort and frustration I was back on here venting and getting some moral support. It would not budge. I was using a 1/2 air impact and had two moving pads folded 4 ways each stacked under the thing for when it came loose. I was ready.....it wasn't. I had tightened the puller and tightened it again. I had heated the hub and tighted the puller some more. I had even cooled the hub with compressed air and heated it again. Still no movement.

 

I'd given up for the night. Frustrated and a bit ticked off at my own failure, went to bed grumbling. I woke up early the next morning with an attitude and ready to do battle. I backed the car out of the shop and pulled my stool up to the bike and looked down at the crank and where the rotor should have been. No rotor. Gone. Ah dang!

 

I slid my stool back and lit a smoke counting the beers I had before bed. Two. Ok, wasn't drunk wrenching again. I looked down and there under my stool nestled into the pile of moving pads was my rotor with the puller still attached. When I quit for the night I had left the puller still attached and fully cranked down. During the night it had just let loose and popped off and landed about 2 1/2 feet from the bike. I'm glad I left the pads laying on the floor and didn't clean up before quitting that night.

 

Or............... I have garage gremlins........good ones.

 

It came off a lot easier this time but it still took three good efforts for it to pop off.

 

Now a word of advice. When you install the modified rotor and engage.......resist the urge to crank it over with the side cover still off to see if it works. The idler gears will walk around and get out of line and if that happens they can create enough pressure to damage the retaining holes for the idler shafts or even crack the case around the holes. Not a good thing. Just a warning.

 

The USPS has a 7x7x5 Priorty Mail box that is a great fit. It was $18.15 to ship it to Dano by Priorty Mail. Weighed in at 11 lbs. 8.8 oz. without the old engage clutch attached.

 

How did your old engage clutch look? Busted up anything like this?

 

 

Later

 

Mike

[escheue]

Well I just found this site today while cussing the bike. To make a long story short my bike ( 90 Venture Royal ) has never been a good starter so I started looking for solutions and found this forum and signed up. So I stripped the starter out and cleaned it up tested it, seems fine but the starter clutch is shot. Looks like as soon as I have time to pull the thing out I will be getting the mod. Thanks for all the great info.

[Snaggletooth]

Hi Erick,

 

Welcome to the club. Take a look around and don't be afraid to ask questions. There is a lot knowledge here. Some of these guys know these bikes inside out.

 

This engage mod is a recent one that has been offered to our members by our one and only Squeeze and Dano. This is the ONLY improvement to the engage system that we have ever seen. It's a last time ever fix.

 

As for your starter, a good cleaning and new brushes can do wonders for these things, and another members has been building an upgrade cable set that replaces the stock battery cables. That one is a MUST DO!

 

So welcome again and stop by the Watering Hole and introduce yourself. You'll get a taste of the asylum we live in here. I'm just saying ya know.....ya been warned.

 

And better be prepared to post pics of your bike. Thay are kinda.....er....well.... special people and they LOVE pics.

 

See ya around.

 

Mike

[Squidley]

Erich,

I notice your in Spring, were located 1960 and Kuykendahl, if you need a hand give a holler and we'll shoot over to your place if you like...my #'s in my profile.