De-linking brakes idea for 83

[Trader]

Do Dyna beads work better with de-linked brakes?

 

Or does that only work when using Amsoil and running on the dark side?

 

[GaryZ]

Do Dyna beads work better with de-linked brakes?

 

Or does that only work when using Amsoil and running on the dark side?

 

 

I'm not sure about Dyna Beads, Amsoil, and the Dark Side.

Maybe you meant Love Beads, Amoco, and Dark Shadows?

 

However, I believe that linked brakes are dangerous.

Everyone knows not to use the front brake because it will flip you over on your head . . .

[Condor]

However, I believe that linked brakes are dangerous.

Everyone knows not to use the front brake because it will flip you over on your head . . .

 

That happened a lot when I was a kid. Never with linked brakes.... Anybody high sided with de-links..... yet.....

[GaryZ]

That happened a lot when I was a kid. Never with linked brakes.... Anybody high sided with de-links..... yet.....

 

You had a bicycle with linked brakes ???

[Condor]

You had a bicycle with linked brakes ???

 

Yep... had a motor in it too...

[greg_in_london]

Oh you lot - if you're going to fall off because you use the brakes, put a double adult stabiliser on the side. If you de-link the brakes, the back master cylinder has the capacity to run a sidecar brake as well. then it's really hard to fall off.

 

I didn't crash into anything when I had linked brakes, but they weren't powerful. With the extra weight of the outfit though, especially when pulling a trailer, the weak brakes REALLY showed up. De-linking gave me much more braking power, but as the whole rig when loaded and with me and the missus are on it adds up to about a ton, I probably need more brakes than most. With a braked trailer I stop okay, even without changing the calipers.

 

Most others will be okay with the linked setup if you put SS hoses on and make sure the rest is maintained. It just didn't meet my needs.

[Condor]

Oh you lot - if you're going to fall off because you use the brakes, put a double adult stabiliser on the side. If you de-link the brakes, the back master cylinder has the capacity to run a sidecar brake as well. then it's really hard to fall off.

 

I didn't crash into anything when I had linked brakes, but they weren't powerful. With the extra weight of the outfit though, especially when pulling a trailer, the weak brakes REALLY showed up. De-linking gave me much more braking power, but as the whole rig when loaded and with me and the missus are on it adds up to about a ton, I probably need more brakes than most. With a braked trailer I stop okay, even without changing the calipers.

 

Most others will be okay with the linked setup if you put SS hoses on and make sure the rest is maintained. It just didn't meet my needs.

 

R1 calipers, and HH pads, with MKII forks would have made life even better without de-linking...

[dingy]

R1 calipers, and HH pads, with MKII forks would have made life even better without de-linking...

 

To clarify, R1, HH and MKII's would have made life better.

 

All the above & delinking would make it grand.

 

Jack, you have quite a few good Ventures, and an RSV. Have you actually ridden a 1st gen with delinked brakes to any extent?

 

I don't really think trike or sidecar would make a lot of difference being delinked. Not much chance of the front wheel sliding out from under you on either one.

 

Gary

[Condor]

To clarify, R1, HH and MKII's would have made life better.

 

All the above & delinking would make it grand.

 

Jack, you have quite a few good Ventures, and an RSV. Have you actually ridden a 1st gen with delinked brakes to any extent?

 

I don't really think trike or sidecar would make a lot of difference being delinked. Not much chance of the front wheel sliding out from under you on either one.

 

Gary

 

No I haven't Gary. Never found the need to try one. However, I have been riding motorcycles for over 50 years with seperate rear brakes, and am actually pretty good at controlling rear brake pressure in a panic stop on many different bikes before ever riding a linked '83 Venture. I finally did go to the R1/HH/MKII mod, and the improvement over the '83 OEM was like night and day, and I didn't touch the rear brake or either master. Granted the R1 mod is more money than de-linking, but with de-linking all you've really done is doubled up on front braking with poor calipers. Doing both may be to the point of over kill. Like brakes that are too weak they can be too touchy as well.

[greg_in_london]

I did manage to locate some R1 calipers, but the 1300 was never sold in the UK, so the fork legs were not easily available before Ebay. I know someone who did manage to buy an imported one and they bought the calipers off of me. I think they found some improvement, though not as much as they hoped.

 

It might well be that the R1 brakes on a linked system outperform a de-linked system with standard calipers, likewise adapting the proprtioning/reducing valve. Remember the linked system prevents the standard caliper working efficiently, or with full control/sensitivity, so criticising them as not being powerful enough on a linked system would be a little unfair (if they actually had any feelings to be concerned about). With all the massive weight on the front end, I'd have to admit that travelling straight on a good, SMOOTH and DRY surface, travelling at speed, I would find it difficult to lock the front wheel. That's fine by me though and the brakes slow me quickly enough. In less optimal settings I could lock up the front wheel if I so chose, or more likely brake heavily under control.

 

Looking at the 2012 Venture ad (watering hole thread) I'm surprised that what used to be sold as a high spec machine doesn't have ABS even as an option, even though the Luddite in me says that I could do without.

[Condor]

I did manage to locate some R1 calipers, but the 1300 was never sold in the UK,

 

The '86-'93 Venture 1300 was not sold in the UK??? Wow!! That's a tid bit of info I was not aware of.....

[GaryZ]

I have been riding motorcycles for over 50 years with seperate rear brakes, and am actually pretty good at controlling rear brake pressure in a panic stop on many different bikes before ever riding a linked '83 Venture.

 

But, did you get good at applying maximum front brakes? This seems to be the crux of the situation with folks that like the linked brakes . . . They are not skilled at applying maximum braking using standard motorcycle brakes where the majority of the stopping power is the front brakes.

[Condor]

But, did you get good at applying maximum front brakes? This seems to be the crux of the situation with folks that like the linked brakes . . . They are not skilled at applying maximum braking using standard motorcycle brakes where the majority of the stopping power is the front brakes.

 

Yep that too... Goes without saying, I'm still here....

 

Any more 'Yes buts' out there???

[Yammer Dan]

I like the feel of my linked ones on the 86. Need to upgrade 85 a little but they will stay linked. Now if I could get ABS....

[Condor]

I like the feel of my linked ones on the 86. Need to upgrade 85 a little but they will stay linked. Now if I could get ABS....

 

The '86 already has 4 piston calipers, and they don't realy need any help.... unless you want to add those cool looking blue or gold 'dots' with the R!'s...

[GaryZ]

Yep that too... Goes without saying, I'm still here....

 

Any more 'Yes buts' out there???

 

 

Just because you are still here does not mean a rider is properly using the front brakes.

Two out of 5 cruiser riders are proof of this . . .

[Yammer Dan]

The '86 already has 4 piston calipers, and they don't realy need any help.... unless you want to add those cool looking blue or gold 'dots' with the R!'s...

 

That Front set I got a while back for "Ugly" look like new. Need to add a back one to match them up I guess.

[Condor]

Just because you are still here does not mean a rider is properly using the front brakes.

Two out of 5 cruiser riders are proof of this . . .

 

Hmmm?? I thought you were asking me if I knew how to use the front brakes?? My bad, guess I was mistaken. Can't answer for anyone else.... can you??

[Condor]

That Front set I got a while back for "Ugly" look like new. Need to add a back one to match them up I guess.

 

I wouldn't waste my time changing the rear Dan. It'll work just fine with the R1's....

I R1..U12?

[Pegasus1300]

The discussion going on only is pertaining to Linked Vs Delinked brakes on 1st gen bikes. Delinking includes severing the rear rotor/left front rotor conection and ties the two front rotors together, both operated from front master.

 

Delinking the brakes should only be done if you are mechanically skilled. Delinking will signifigantly alter bikes braking charictaristics. Some like it, some don't want to try it.

 

DO NOT remove proportioning or metering valves on a stock setup.

 

Gary

 

Ok my bad I didn't express my self well.I did know the thread was about delinking the brakes and I know what that means. I was under the impression that part of delinking the brakes was eliminating the proportioning valve to the rear caliper.I seem to remember a thread from years ago discussing this very subject and various ways to keep the rear brake from becoming too grabby,but I don't remember what those were. So I go back to my original question,if you mount the line to the front brake outlet of the master cylinder doesn't that bypass the proportioning valve/pressure limiter( I am not sure which it really is) to the rear brake thus giving full master cylinder pressure delivery to a single caliper from a master cylinder originally designed to feed 2 calipers and thus creating a grabby rear brake.I am not asking this question to discourage anyone from delinking their brakes or debunk the idea of doing that.I am actually considering doing that to my 87VR and I have the mechanical ability to do that I just have some unanswered questions about it.I feel that going is optional but stopping is manditory and if I can get better brakes an a 25 year old bike I am all for that.But until my research is done I will leave them alone as they work well when bled properly and with good pads.

[saddlebum]

Ok just to throw a twist into the frackus. If the proportionaing valve supplies 70% to the front brakes and 30% to the rear brakes, why not just switch the lines ? Would this not give a sort of compromise without completely delinking the entire system? It would seem to me that doing this would have a similiar affect to delinking while still maintaing some slow down effect without lock up from the front wheel.

I one time came over the top of a sharp rise to be suddenly confronted with a stop sign and got caught braking short on some loose sand on top of ashphalt. Even though I was only using the foot brake, I had a hard time slowing down without the front wheel locking up and trying to slide sideways on me. In the end I just looked left and right and gunned through the intersection hopeing nothing was coming through the other way.

P/S I admit I was probably going a little too fast at the time.

[greg_in_london]

@Pegasus: All hydraulic systems have a bit of a trade off between volume of fluid moved and pressure. If you use a larger diameter master cylinder, (ie for the front) then you will be able to operate two calipers, but at slightly lower pressure (80-85%?) so although the brakes will be more powerful, you won't have have quite double the braking force. Staying with the original master cylinder could mean that the level comes all the way back to the bars (though one poster said they had managed okay.

To answer your point, though, using a rear master cylinder 'designed for two calipers' will tend to make it less grabby, or slightly more wooden, than one designed for one caliper (narrower diameter). It would not be more likely to lock up.

 

@Saddlebum: As I understand it, and from discussions of older British cars with proportioning valves, there are two parts to this system.

 

1) There is a restrictor near the headstock. This restricts the flow to the front left caliper. The IDEA is that it prevents the front left disk from grabbing too hard too early. A simple restriction would not stop you reaching maximum power over continued braking, so there is less control over the front brake as the fluid flows through. If maximum power does not lock the front brake, you will see no problem. If you only lock the wheel when you use the master cylinder for the second disk, then you're probably also happy with the system. Assuming this arrangement is sufficient to stop you. If you want maximum feel, control and power, then you want to delink.

[if your pads are old or the system otherwise not well maintained (not saying that this applies to anyone, just describing a scenario) so that you are struggling to get maximum pressure, then admittedly you will get more pressure on the rh disc with a 13mm master cylinder and POTENTIALLY more on the lh disk by standing on the brake pedal.]

 

2) The proportioning valve. The idea is that as you brake, the bike's weight is transferred onto the front wheel, so there is less weight on the back. The argument is that using the back brake is then likely to lock the wheel and is therefore dangerous. The proportioning valve has a sliding valve which is intended to reduce the pressure to the back brake as deceleration increases. I'm not sure that it can actually work like that - overcome the pressure of the foot pedal, but that is what it is designed to do.

The aim is therefore to take the pressure off the back brake while the pressure slowly increases on the front, matching the relative weight distribution on each wheel. As deceleration reduces (and weight transfers back to the rear) the proportioning valve allows full use of the back brake.

 

Without measuring braking force/pressure, the initial proprtion might be 70% rear, 30% front on application, passing through 50%, 50% as the weight transfers and THEN 30% rear, 70% front as pressure rises. I assume that this would take less than a second, certainly less than two, under heavy braking, maybe longer if braking is gentle.

 

I can entirely understand why anyone would prefer this system in certain emergency situations - it operates to make it less likely that the wheels will be locked up in an emergency (assuming normal road conditiond) - but it does it by reducing the effectiveness of brakes, which it is presumed are powerful enough to have capacity to spare. The wide margin for error on brakes which I really wouldn't have said were powerful to start with, together with UK road conditions which might be different to yours meant the decision to change was easy.

I haven't tried linked brakes with R1 brakes, so I can't comment on those, but my experience with the original set-up might have biased me against them, especially as my day-day commute bike has unlinked brakes so I'm unlikely to adjust easily.

 

@ Condor: The Venture was only imported in 1984, maybe a couple of hundred, maybe less. The story I heard was that Honda complained that Yamaha was breaching design patents by having a motorcycle with a radio ?? Sounds odd to me, but it seems Yamaha backed off from the argument and did not import the Venture after that until it beacme a Royal Star. I think that the Suzuki Cavalcade and Kawasaki Voyager were only imported for a very short time and in even smaller numbers around that time. We started to see more Ventures with the easing of markets thro' the EEC and upsurge of the 'grey import' market from Japan, plus other bikes from dry areas of the states which were imported as old bikes, but to the UK market appeared new as they were devoid of rust !

So - maybe 10-20 1300 Ventures ever in the country ? Who knows.

[Condor]

 

@ Condor: The Venture was only imported in 1984, maybe a couple of hundred, maybe less. The story I heard was that Honda complained that Yamaha was breaching design patents by having a motorcycle with a radio ?? Sounds odd to me, but it seems Yamaha backed off from the argument and did not import the Venture after that until it beacme a Royal Star. I think that the Suzuki Cavalcade and Kawasaki Voyager were only imported for a very short time and in even smaller numbers around that time. We started to see more Ventures with the easing of markets thro' the EEC and upsurge of the 'grey import' market from Japan, plus other bikes from dry areas of the states which were imported as old bikes, but to the UK market appeared new as they were devoid of rust !

So - maybe 10-20 1300 Ventures ever in the country ? Who knows.

 

Thanks for the bit of Venture Lore Greg. I didn't realize that the UK Venture was so limited. It might have been mentioned in the past, but if it was, I missed it....

[GaryZ]

Ok my bad I didn't express my self well.I did know the thread was about delinking the brakes and I know what that means. I was under the impression that part of delinking the brakes was eliminating the proportioning valve to the rear caliper.I seem to remember a thread from years ago discussing this very subject and various ways to keep the rear brake from becoming too grabby,but I don't remember what those were. So I go back to my original question,if you mount the line to the front brake outlet of the master cylinder doesn't that bypass the proportioning valve/pressure limiter( I am not sure which it really is) to the rear brake thus giving full master cylinder pressure delivery to a single caliper from a master cylinder originally designed to feed 2 calipers and thus creating a grabby rear brake.I am not asking this question to discourage anyone from delinking their brakes or debunk the idea of doing that.I am actually considering doing that to my 87VR and I have the mechanical ability to do that I just have some unanswered questions about it.I feel that going is optional but stopping is manditory and if I can get better brakes an a 25 year old bike I am all for that.But until my research is done I will leave them alone as they work well when bled properly and with good pads.

 

I de-linked my '85 brakes over a year ago and left the rear line in the 30% location. The rear brakes were almost non-existent. I would not want to ride very far with only that rear brake. Last week I decided to move the line to the 70% port only to find that it won't reach. A longer brake line is needed. Instead I removed the guts of the proportioning valve. The rear brake is much better. It has a good feel and I would have to try very hard to lock the rear wheel.

[GaryZ]

Hmmm?? I thought you were asking me if I knew how to use the front brakes?? My bad, guess I was mistaken. Can't answer for anyone else.... can you??

 

You win Condor. Your edgy wit and supreme knowledge has me at such a disadvantage that I give up. Please post one more response to have the last word and you will no longer hear from me . . .