De-linking brakes idea for 83

[dingy]

What are the thoughts on using a front brake line set up off of an RSV for the front brakes on a 1st Gen. (1983)

 

It seems like it will work to me, but I would like to hear from the voices of experience out there.

 

I got a set from Pinwall cycle for $18.00 shipped and it looks like it will fit.

 

This came off of a 2000 RSV. If nothing else, lines are 17 years newer than my 83 has on it.

 

Pictures below. Last picture is of one caliper ends and the master cylinder end.

 

I will need to fabricate a bracket to mount the coupling unit.

 

The hose lengths look OK

 

The angle of the master cylinder fitting is off some what. That may create a minor problem where the cover goes on under the handle bar riser. This is not a show stopper though.

The caliper angles on hoses appear to be workable.

The front brake lines are one of the few things I don't have off of the bike at this point.

 

I have not measured I.D. of the ends of the hoses to check for a match yet.

 

Is there any thing inside the center coupler unit or is it just straight piping?

 

One the rear master cylinder, can I just block off the port that the line to the front comes out of, or is it more involved ?

 

 

Gary

 

 

 

[Thom]

that is a 1st i think , using a 2nd Gen for parts , i delinked my 86 , i used the front lines off a vmax , i got all the other parts i needed from Skydoc , i wish i had talked to him before i bought the parts because he has a kit with everything you need to delink .

[skydoc_17]

Hey Dingy,

I have to agree with Thom, This must be a first! Using Second Gen. Parts on a First Gen!

Thanks for the Kudo's by the way Thom.

Here are a few thoughts that came to mind when I put the VR to R1 Brake Swap Kit together, some apply, some don't. Please take what you need and leave the rest.

With the 2 piston Calipers on the front of the MKI VR, the only real advantage of an upgrade is the Stainless Steel Braided lines. Although, you are correct, the line set you have is very old and the Second Gen. line set is newer. I fab a few pieces that you may find useful for the delink, they would be the S.S. Banjo Splitter Adapter Bracket, The Rear Master Cylinder Plug Bolt, and a Custom Stainless Steel Braided Rear Brake Line for the Rear Brake. All of these items come with complete installation instructions. Once you delink, the stock rear brake line will not work on the rear master cylinder any more. Thats why you need the new rear brake line. My thought was, you might as well replace it with a S.S. line and be done with it. Having both front calipers work with the hand brake and the rear caliper working with the foot brake works better for me. My bike stops quicker and straighter.

Again, Way to think outside the Box!

Earl

[dingy]

Help me out.

 

2 new questions

 

From what Earl says, The rear brake line at the master cylinder must now have to be connected to the port that previously ran to the front of the bike ? Otherwise why would the existing rear line no longer work.

 

Do I put new line in front port and plug rear port?

 

I included a picture of a rear master cylinder for reference. Open port is front line, hose is for rear slave.

 

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af193/gdingy101/master2.jpg

 

2nd, and this is VERY important.

 

How much is this going to SLOW my 1st gen down if I put this 2nd gen part on it ??

 

:think:

 

 

Gary

[Thom]

1st , i anit gonna answer the 2nd ? the reason you swap ports is the M/C put 70% to the front and 30% to the rear . when delinking you want all the brake you can get so you want to use the front port . get the plug and rear brake line from Skydoc at least , i did not get the plug from him thinking i could just find a bolt to fit , guess what you can't buy 1 that is that short so i spent a 1/2 day buying the bolt than cutting it down to fit

[Squeeze]

I never would use old rubber Brake Line to "upgrade" my Brake.

 

Those rubber Lines expand over the Years, and that what you don't want to have. Even if newer Rubber Lines are as half as old as those you have you'll loose a Lot of the new gained Braking Power because the hydraulic Force is used to expand the Lines first, then move the Pistons in the Calipers.

 

Get a Set of S.S. Lines and be done with it forever. Might cost you more Money in first Place, but you'll never know how much you gave away until you finally replace the oldf Lines in three Years or so. Yammi recommends replacing all Rubber Type Brake (and Clutch) Lines every four Years, and if a Point of their Maintenance Schedules is right then it is this four Years Period. Period.

[skydoc_17]

I thought I would add a pic or two of the R1 Upgrade just to give you an Idea how "*****in'" the set-up looks.

Earl

[warthogcrewchief]

Skydoc,

How much do you charge for your R1 Kit? Do you sell the ss lines too?

 

Thanks,

WHCC

(w/ '89 VR)

[skydoc_17]

Hey Crewchief,

I have an Ad in the VR.ORG Classifieds:

 

http://www.venturerider.org/classifieds/showproduct.php/product/2446/cat/500

 

For the entire R1 Kit, but am willing to sell the S.S. Brake Lines and the "Custom" items separately and you can "shop" around for the other items.

Hope this helps,

Earl

[CrazyHorse]

I agree with Squeeze. I used new stainless lines. With the SS lines you can get any head angle you need to hook up. You have to measure correctly for the lines ( I used a string) and leave a little slack for turning the handle bars. I didnt use a splitter I used a double banjo bolt. From my experience I would go with the splitter set up too much clutter with the double banjo. You can take off the proportioning valve and hook the rear line up to the master direct. I plugged up the front line hole in the rear master with a 10mm x1.25 I believe and I had to cut that down because it was too long. I used R6 brakes and a GSXR750 front master cylinder with adjustable lever. I also used speed bleeders but actually filled the lines up with the old bleeders first because I could'nt get lines full with the speed bleeders for some reason. This was a personal choice for me because of my disdain for linked brakes. I know it's not for everyone.

[Wizard765]

Earl:

 

Is there a similar solution for the Mk1? Do you have a set of SS lines that will fit an 84? Is there a replacement for the calipers?

 

Wayne

[CrazyHorse]

Earl:

 

Is there a similar solution for the Mk1? Do you have a set of SS lines that will fit an 84? Is there a replacement for the calipers?

 

Wayne

 

 

R1/R6 brakes will not fit the Mk1 the caliper holes are different. You will need a MKII fork.

[Condor]

R1/R6 brakes will not fit the Mk1 the caliper holes are different. You will need a MKII fork.

 

That's what I did to my '83. MKII fork tubes with the 100mm wide mounting holes and R1 calipers. You'll also need to change out the rotors to MKII's as the MKI's are thicker with the internal cooling vanes. I don't think it's neccessary to de-link the front and rear brakes to gain stopping power. The R1's will do that for you. I also didn't wire up the anti-dives. With the Progressive Springs in there it takes care of the dive problem, and I'm a high center 350#, so if they're gonna dive it would be with me in the saddle. I'd have put Stainless lines on, but at the time I'd already spent enough money, so I'm still running the OEM's. Maybe someday??

[dingy]

I have done some investigating into the need to move the brake line on the rear master.

 

Don't vote me off of the island for this. I am working on a limited budget here. I have been laid off most of this year. If I had the funds there would be MKII brake system on the scooter.

 

By removing the proportioning valve plunger and replacing the valve body nut, and plugging the front brake line port, I can see no reason to have to replace the rear brake line, other than age.

 

There is an unobstructed fluid path through the proportioning valve body once the plunger is removed that is equivalent in size to the hole in the banjo bolts.

 

The one thing that I would point out if anyone were to do this is to be sure and remove the black rubber seal that is inside of the proportioning valve cover nut. If this were to remain inside the valve body it could become dislodged at some point and cause a line blockage. (seen in 2nd & 3rd pictures)

 

First picture is of a spare master cylinder I have. This shows the proportioning valve.

 

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af193/gdingy101/master6.jpg

 

This picture shows the cap removed from the proportioning valve. Note the black rubber seal inside of the cap.

 

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af193/gdingy101/master4.jpg

 

View of proportioning valve plunger removed. Note the black rubber seal setting beside the cap. This plunger slides right out of valve body, no retainer clips.

 

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af193/gdingy101/master7.jpg

 

View through proportioning valve body showing fluid passage.

 

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af193/gdingy101/master5.jpg

 

 

Gary

[Big Daddy]

So am I reading this right one of the ports from the brake master cylinder puts out less hydraulic pressure than the other?

Perhaps this is why the rear delinked brake on my 83 puts out such poor performance?

It has never been a big issue safety wise as most of the heavy work is done by the front but it would be nice to have a bit more bite when trail braking.

[dingy]

The port that goes to the front of the bike is unobstructed inside the rear master cylinder, that is to say, the front line gets full pressure coming out of the rear master cylinder pressure chamber.

 

The line to the front brake caliper passes through a metering valve near the triple trees, I have not opened this valve up but I would assume that its purpose is to restrict the flow into the front caliper. Between the rear proportioning valve and the front metering valve, the 70/30 pressure difference is obtained.

 

From what I have found by disassembling rear master cylinder, by blocking the front port off with a bolt at rear master cylinder, and removing the plunger from proportioning valve, full rear master cylinder pressure would be delivered to rear caliper.

 

The same full flow to the rear master would be obtained by relocating the rear brake line to the front port on the rear master cylinder though. The port that originally ran to the rear caliper is then blocked off with a bolt. This relocating is what requires the longer brake line. I believe that this is unnecessary though, with removal of the proportioning valve plunger.

 

Gary

[dingy]

In case anyone is interested in trying this, here is a link to a front brake line set from a 1999 RSV that is currently on ebay. Posted by Pinwall cycle.

 

Do a search for item #

 

350212734688

 

Gary

Edited December 15, 2009 by dingy
link didn't work

[skydoc_17]

Hey Gary,

Again, I say Kudo's for thinking outside the box on your brake mod. My intention with the VR to R1 Brake Swap was to provide a minimum of top quality parts at a reasonable cost so that a person with limited mechanical skills could "bolt on" this upgrade, enjoy the benefits of the increased braking performance, not have to revisit the brake lines in a year or two and have the piece of mind to KNOW that the parts that were installed were top quality and will provide a long, and useful service life.

You are no doubt, a very resourceful person, with excellent analytical skills. There are many such members on this site. There are however some people that do not enjoy this ability or they do not have the time or equipment to produce custom parts or compare parts from other bikes for usefulness. I try to provide the many kits I offer as a service to all members of VR.ORG, not to get rich off of them but to help them solve problems they are having with their bikes, just as I have had with my own.

It would be foolish of me to debate weather you can "gimp" a 25 year old braking system back to life with a few used parts because that was not the intension of any of my posts in the thread you started. As other members have stated, they each came up with their own "work around" for the issues my custom parts try to solve.

I am sure you take great pride in discovering your own "work arounds" as do I when it comes to the wonderful machines, and as stated in my very first post, "Take what you need and leave the rest" is meant to say that one of the most wonderful things about this forum is that many people, with many different ideas,can share their knowledge and skills and everyone has the right to "Take what they need, and leave the rest."

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that your brake mod will function properly, and will serve you well in the years to come. Is it the "Cool Beans", "Cat's A$$" to die for upgrade,

Hardly! You have made it quite clear that you are a person that likes to work things out on their own, and as I said before, twice, I admire you for this skill set.

My thoughts, for what their worth,

Earl

[dingy]

I appreciate that Earl.

 

I am in no way disparaging the kit or services you offer.

 

I was initially just looking for input from anyone as to if what I was thinking of was not possible due to something I was unaware of. (Look at my signature line).

 

You are absolutely correct that the best way to go is the Stainless Steel lines.

 

However, I like living in my house and the better half would make that unbearable if I continue spending on my bike with out a reasonable source of income other than the unemployment check I get. As it was I sold my class ring and first wedding band (neither had any sentimental value considering the current gold prices) for cash to continue working on this.

 

:mo money:

 

Gary

[CrazyHorse]

Hey Gary,

Again, I say Kudo's for thinking outside the box on your brake mod. My intention with the VR to R1 Brake Swap was to provide a minimum of top quality parts at a reasonable cost so that a person with limited mechanical skills could "bolt on" this upgrade, enjoy the benefits of the increased braking performance, not have to revisit the brake lines in a year or two and have the piece of mind to KNOW that the parts that were installed were top quality and will provide a long, and useful service life.

You are no doubt, a very resourceful person, with excellent analytical skills. There are many such members on this site. There are however some people that do not enjoy this ability or they do not have the time or equipment to produce custom parts or compare parts from other bikes for usefulness. I try to provide the many kits I offer as a service to all members of VR.ORG, not to get rich off of them but to help them solve problems they are having with their bikes, just as I have had with my own.

It would be foolish of me to debate weather you can "gimp" a 25 year old braking system back to life with a few used parts because that was not the intension of any of my posts in the thread you started. As other members have stated, they each came up with their own "work around" for the issues my custom parts try to solve.

I am sure you take great pride in discovering your own "work arounds" as do I when it comes to the wonderful machines, and as stated in my very first post, "Take what you need and leave the rest" is meant to say that one of the most wonderful things about this forum is that many people, with many different ideas,can share their knowledge and skills and everyone has the right to "Take what they need, and leave the rest."

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that your brake mod will function properly, and will serve you well in the years to come. Is it the "Cool Beans", "Cat's A$$" to die for upgrade,

Hardly! You have made it quite clear that you are a person that likes to work things out on their own, and as I said before, twice, I admire you for this skill set.

My thoughts, for what their worth,

Earl

 

 

I gotta admire both of you guys and Tim Gray , Squeeze you guys all take it to the next level of thinking out of the box. I think its great. Keep it up

[talonsx2]

So please pardon my ignorance but how do you know if you have MKI or MKII forks? Thank you in advance..

 

 

Keep the rubber on the road

 

Michael

[dingy]

MKII forks have electric anti dives (1986 -1993)

Quad piston calipers

 

 

MKI forks are hydraulic anti dives (1983 -1985)

dual piston calipers

 

 

Gary

[Big Daddy]

So am I reading this right one of the ports from the brake master cylinder puts out less hydraulic pressure than the other?

Perhaps this is why the rear delinked brake on my 83 puts out such poor performance?

It has never been a big issue safety wise as most of the heavy work is done by the front but it would be nice to have a bit more bite when trail braking.

 

I took a look and I see that proportioning valve was removed and the second hole plugged. So I should be getting full squeeze there. I do already have SS lines. Maybe just another bleeding........

[Condor]

I took a look and I see that proportioning valve was removed and the second hole plugged. So I should be getting full squeeze there. I do already have SS lines. Maybe just another bleeding........

 

Air in the line will give you the spongies. Get a speed bleeder on that thing. Pump the pedal until the air's out. No more pump it up and crack the valve... repeat, etc... Just pump away and make sure you don't run out of fluid in the reserve. Once you have all the air out close the speed and pump til hard. If that doesn't give you braking power you might need a master rebuild.....

PS: Also noticed you typed 'squeeze'. If you meant the foot pedal you ain't squeezin' and it's the fronts that need to be bled....

Edited December 16, 2009 by Condor

[GaryZ]

I have done some investigating into the need to move the brake line on the rear master.

 

Don't vote me off of the island for this. I am working on a limited budget here. I have been laid off most of this year. If I had the funds there would be MKII brake system on the scooter.

 

By removing the proportioning valve plunger and replacing the valve body nut, and plugging the front brake line port, I can see no reason to have to replace the rear brake line, other than age.

 

There is an unobstructed fluid path through the proportioning valve body once the plunger is removed that is equivalent in size to the hole in the banjo bolts.

 

Gary

 

I did this mod yesterday and only found a small improvement!

What did I do wrong?