Heads Up PA riders with Voyager Trike

[DONATALIE]

Any other RSV Voyager "trike" riders in PA out there? Have you seen the article in the December 2009 ABATE of PA newsletter? According to PennDOT, the Voyager trike kit is not legal in PA! It's because with the Voyager on the bike, it has four wheels on the ground, not three. According to PennDOT, the state Vehicle Code states that a motorcycle can have no more than three wheels. I've looked it up, and by strict letter of the law, it appears that they are right. But, come on, aren't there better things the lawyers at the largest governmental agency in the state could be doing? Hopefully ABATE will be able to get the law changed and/or get the courts to throw this out. My disabled son LOVES riding on our 2000 RSV with the Voyager trike on it, but he can't ride without the stability the kit provides. Check it out, this could be an issue for any "trikes" that have more than three wheels, like Tow-pac.

[Skid]

By definition of law, a Motorcycle is defined as three wheels or less....

[MiCarl]

By definition of law, a Motorcycle is defined as three wheels or less....

 

According to Michigan: “Motorcycle” means every motor vehicle having a saddle or seat for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than 3 wheels in contact with the ground but excluding a tractor.

 

I always wondered if the Voyager kits weren't vulnerable to over enthusiastic law enforcement.

[Freebird]

I agree that if somebody wanted to push the issue then it could be a problem. But come on, this is crazy. It is obviously a motorcycle.

[Skid]

According to Michigan: “Motorcycle” means every motor vehicle having a saddle or seat for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than 3 wheels in contact with the ground but excluding a tractor.

 

I always wondered if the Voyager kits weren't vulnerable to over enthusiastic law enforcement.

 

 

Yes MiCarl.

We have the very same wording in West Virginia, but its one of them laws that no one enforces....

 

§17C-1-4. Motorcycle.

"Motorcycle" means every motor vehicle having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground, but excluding a tractor.

[bdyohecomcast.net]

I also understand there is a problem with insurance in pa with a that kind of kit can't remember where i read it though Bill

[Seawolf]

It's the same here in New York

 

Motorcycle Laws in New York State

 

§ 123. Motorcycle. Every motor vehicle having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground, but excluding a tractor.

[hillrider]

Ok, let's see here. It has 4 wheels, not three, so it's not a motorcycle.

 

It must be a car. Helmet not required, no special license, cheaper insurance.

I've got to be wrong somewhere.

[MiCarl]

Ok, let's see here. It has 4 wheels, not three, so it's not a motorcycle.

 

It must be a car. Helmet not required, no special license, cheaper insurance.

I've got to be wrong somewhere.

 

No seat belts,

No 5mph bumpers,

No passive restraints.

 

Probably not even legal to drive on a public road.

[DONATALIE]

I don't know why some people have to be so snotty in their responses. I wish I had never started this thread. I was just trying to advise others in PA who may be dealing with disabilities (themselves or a loved one), who might think the Voyager or Tow Pac is a viable option, that PennDOT considers these rigs illegal. Nevermind that they actually, in my opinion, make the bikes safer. All government agencies, in this case PennDOT, are required to allow disabled citizens and/or their caregivers to make whatever accomodations they need to live their lives. This is a federal mandate here in the US, known as the Americans With Disabilities Act. Examples of this law would be seeing eye dogs in restaurants, and yes, allowing drivers to use hands-only controls on their vehicles if their disability prevents them from using pedals. (FYI, if a driver is not disabled, hands-only controls are illegal in PA). In my opinion, these rigs are no different. If this is what my young, wheelchair bound son requires, he should be allowed to use it. And just so you know, before I spent the money on the rig, I called PennDOT myself, and spoke to one of their attorneys. I was told at that time, that it was an "adaptation," not a permanent change to the structure of the motorcycle, so it would therefore still be considered a motorcycle, which is, despite what a previous poster said, not "illegal on a public road." The ruling published in the ABATE newsletter was issued by one of the deputy under secretaries of PennDOT, who of course, out-ranks the attorney I spoke to. I thought bikers were "all heart." I guess I was misinformed.

Oh, by the way, the Pittsburgh (PA) Police Bureau currently has 18 Harley's equipped with the Voyager, just like my 2000 RSV. I wonder if the fun police at PennDOT are going make the department remove them since they are no longer considered street legal. I think we all know the answer to that.

I'm sorry that some of you feel the need to look down your noses at these "trikes" and to tell you the truth, for myself, I don't like the way it rides. But it makes one very special little boy very happy. I thought you all would have understood that.

[Freebird]

To be totally honest, I think you are being fairly thin skinned. I have been reading all the posts and just read through them again. It seems that most everybody who replied agrees that anybody who claims that they are not motorcycles are being ridiculous. The last couple of replies were being sarcastic AGAINST those who say that they are not motorcycles with tongue and cheek remarks that if that is true, then none of the safety laws regarding motorcycles would reply.

 

I think you are taking the responses wrong.

[Dave77459]

I don't know why some people have to be so snotty in their responses. I wish I had never started this thread. I was just trying to advise others in PA who may be dealing with disabilities (themselves or a loved one), who might think the Voyager or Tow Pac is a viable option, that PennDOT considers these rigs illegal. Nevermind that they actually, in my opinion, make the bikes safer. All government agencies, in this case PennDOT, are required to allow disabled citizens and/or their caregivers to make whatever accomodations they need to live their lives. This is a federal mandate here in the US, known as the Americans With Disabilities Act. Examples of this law would be seeing eye dogs in restaurants, and yes, allowing drivers to use hands-only controls on their vehicles if their disability prevents them from using pedals. (FYI, if a driver is not disabled, hands-only controls are illegal in PA). In my opinion, these rigs are no different. If this is what my young, wheelchair bound son requires, he should be allowed to use it. And just so you know, before I spent the money on the rig, I called PennDOT myself, and spoke to one of their attorneys. I was told at that time, that it was an "adaptation," not a permanent change to the structure of the motorcycle, so it would therefore still be considered a motorcycle, which is, despite what a previous poster said, not "illegal on a public road." The ruling published in the ABATE newsletter was issued by one of the deputy under secretaries of PennDOT, who of course, out-ranks the attorney I spoke to. I thought bikers were "all heart." I guess I was misinformed.

Oh, by the way, the Pittsburgh (PA) Police Bureau currently has 18 Harley's equipped with the Voyager, just like my 2000 RSV. I wonder if the fun police at PennDOT are going make the department remove them since they are no longer considered street legal. I think we all know the answer to that.

I'm sorry that some of you feel the need to look down your noses at these "trikes" and to tell you the truth, for myself, I don't like the way it rides. But it makes one very special little boy very happy. I thought you all would have understood that.

 

I like how you phrase that: an adaptation for use by a disabled person. IANAL, but I would buy that argument.

 

In that same vein, I would consider their use by non-disabled people to be illegal, according to the postings above. Including by the Pittsburgh (PA) Police Bureau.

 

But, I didn't think any of the above responses snotty. You presented an interesting aspect of motorcycling that some of us (me) hadn't considered, and people chipped in facts and opinions.

 

Dave

 

Dave

[DONATALIE]

Someone sent me trap door emails explaining how my son and I "don't belong on the road", and how we "hog up the road for everyone else," etc (I'm sure you can guess the rest). Another emailer suggested that we should "just stay home." They made references to the posting on VR in the email headings which is why I opened them in the first place. It's obvious that some people on this forum have an issue with us on the road. Oh well, their loss. Please believe me when I tell you that I am not thin skinned. We have been stared at and whispered about his entire life. I'm used to it. My wife however, would have been VERY upset if she had opened the emails instead of me.

[Freebird]

If that is true, then it is upsetting. First of all, your private email address is NOT made publicly available on this site whether you are a member or just a guest. Any emails you got would have been through private message or through the email system here which shows that it came from the venturerider site and NOT directly to your email address. So, if you got any trapdoor emails from anybody here, please let me know via PM who it was from and I'll address the issue.

[Dave77459]

Someone sent me trap door emails explaining how my son and I "don't belong on the road", and how we "hog up the road for everyone else," etc (I'm sure you can guess the rest). Another emailer suggested that we should "just stay home." They made references to the posting on VR in the email headings which is why I opened them in the first place. It's obvious that some people on this forum have an issue with us on the road. Oh well, their loss. Please believe me when I tell you that I am not thin skinned. We have been stared at and whispered about his entire life. I'm used to it. My wife however, would have been VERY upset if she had opened the emails instead of me.

 

That's just wrong. How bigoted and cowardly. I understand your comments above better now, and apologize for implying that you seemed thin-skinned.

 

Dave

[dingy]

What is a "Trap Door Email " ?

 

I just Googled it and it did not show anything.

 

And I think that people that ride the 4 wheel bikes are actually awesome. It shows that despite whatever, they are willing to get out there and enjoy riding for what it is. !!

 

 

Gary

[MiCarl]

I'm sorry you got nasty emails.

 

I, for one, knew nothing of you or your son until you posted it in this thread.

 

The point of my previous post was to criticize bureaucrats who might (dare I say likely?) determine that it's got four wheels so it's not a motorcycle, and that it doesn't have the required equipment for a passenger car, therefore.........

 

Personally I don't care what anyone rides/drives no matter however many wheels it has.

 

However, if the state of PA decides to classify it as a tractor, please refrain from towing your hay rake on public roads during rush hour.

[rsstar]

I would also like to know what a "trap door" email is. As for the comments made to the thread i think most were in SUPPORT of you, not against you. I have been riding my own motorcycles since 1971, one year after being almost killed in a horrific car accident that also almost took my wife. Up until 2007 I have had a few close calls but never an accident on a bike. since 2007 i have had two accidents, the second of which really messed me up. now, as much as I love bikes I am hesitant to get another because my wife is against it and I am not sure of myself. I have been looking at the new spyder RT and even test rode one. But it just isn't the same to me.

I understand how you feel and am in complete agreance with you in your choice to ride with the Voyager kit. It's not for me but if it fits for you then great. As for the state of Pa. saying it's illegal, I would remove my Voyager from use when the police did the same. Some laws are just plain stupid and it's time we here the the good old USofA stood up to the politicians and said "ENOUGH" !!!! Good luck to you and yours and here's hoping you have a blessed Christmas.

[MTC Voyager]

Hello Yamaha Riders,

 

I am a representative of Motorcycle Tour Conversions, Inc., maker of the Voyager Convertible Kit.

 

I am posting on this website to clear up any confusion about our legality.

 

First of all, we are currently legal in every state of the United States. Even though most motorcycle identification codes read "...three wheels or less in contact with the road...", we are still legal.

 

Our legality is found in two areas:

 

First, we are considered a trailer under law. Trailer laws generally read, "a non-motorized vehicle, carrying persons or property, drawn from the motorcycle." We carry persons, the rider (and passenger), and property, the motorcycle. Our unit is non-motorized, and it is drawn from the motorcycle. Clearly legal.

 

Second, we are legal under the United States Disability Act. This act states that any product or modification that allows people to operate a vehicle or system in a way that makes it safer for the operator and the public is legal. Also, disabilities include both heighth and strength, which is a major cause for needing extra stability.

 

We hope NITSA, as well as individual states, will redefine the motorcycle, due to the industry's innovations, however, even if they don't, we are still legal.

 

If you have any questions or concerns, please contact Charles (MTC, Inc. President) at (815) 434-7900.

 

Thank you and Have a Great Day!

 

Motorcycle Tour Conversions, Inc.

[Freebird]

That's good info and I don't blame you at all for your efforts in dispelling such rumors. I agree though that the laws need to be made more clear.

[DONATALIE]

Hello Yamaha Riders,

 

I am a representative of Motorcycle Tour Conversions, Inc., maker of the Voyager Convertible Kit.

 

I am posting on this website to clear up any confusion about our legality.

 

First of all, we are currently legal in every state of the United States. Even though most motorcycle identification codes read "...three wheels or less in contact with the road...", we are still legal.

 

Our legality is found in two areas:

 

First, we are considered a trailer under law. Trailer laws generally read, "a non-motorized vehicle, carrying persons or property, drawn from the motorcycle." We carry persons, the rider (and passenger), and property, the motorcycle. Our unit is non-motorized, and it is drawn from the motorcycle. Clearly legal.

 

Second, we are legal under the United States Disability Act. This act states that any product or modification that allows people to operate a vehicle or system in a way that makes it safer for the operator and the public is legal. Also, disabilities include both heighth and strength, which is a major cause for needing extra stability.

 

We hope NITSA, as well as individual states, will redefine the motorcycle, due to the industry's innovations, however, even if they don't, we are still legal.

 

If you have any questions or concerns, please contact Charles (MTC, Inc. President) at (815) 434-7900.

 

Thank you and Have a Great Day!

 

Motorcycle Tour Conversions, Inc.

 

 

While I wish you were right, in PA you're not, according to PennDOT. The PA Vehicle Code specifically describes a motorcycle as having no more than three wheels. Also, a trailer must be towed BEHIND the towing vehicle, not under it, beside it, or straddling it like the Voyager Trike kit. Also, a trailer must have a 17 digit VIN, so it can be titled and registered, which yours does not have. For all these reasons, I could not get my RSV inspected with the Voyager Trike kit on it. Too bad, too because I loved it. I've since gotten rid of it and bought a sidecar setup. ABATE has written and published an article on this, and we have asked our local congressman to help, but so far no luck. If the law does get changed, I'd probably buy another one, but in PA, your rig is currently NOT legally a motorcycle or a trailer, and any motorcycle with one on it can not be inspected legally. I got that straight from PennDOT's Chief Legal Counsel in Harrisburg.

Don

Edited February 2, 2011 by DONATALIE
spelling

[painterman67]

While I wish you were right, in PA you're not, according to PennDOT. The PA Vehicle Code specifically describes a motorcycle as having no more than three wheels. Also, a trailer must be towed BEHIND the towing vehicle, not under it, beside it, or straddling it like the Voyager Trike kit. Also, a trailer must have a 17 digit VIN, so it can be titled and registered, which yours does not have. For all these reasons, I could not get my RSV inspected with the Voyager Trike kit on it. Too bad, too because I loved it. I've since gotten rid of it and bought a sidecar setup. ABATE has written and published an article on this, and we have asked our local congressman to help, but so far no luck. If the law does get changed, I'd probably buy another one, but in PA, your rig is currently NOT legally a motorcycle or a trailer, and any motorcycle with one on it can not be inspected legally. I got that straight from PennDOT's Chief Legal Counsel in Harrisburg.

Don

 

 

Man I hate to hear you had to sell that kit.........good luck with whatever you do. Ive been reluctant to say anything as I dont know what the laws are here in NZC on that much less than what ever they are in PA.

 

David

[Flyinfool]

While I wish you were right, in PA you're not, according to PennDOT. The PA Vehicle Code specifically describes a motorcycle as having no more than three wheels. Also, a trailer must be towed BEHIND the towing vehicle, not under it, beside it, or straddling it like the Voyager Trike kit. Also, a trailer must have a 17 digit VIN, so it can be titled and registered, which yours does not have. For all these reasons, I could not get my RSV inspected with the Voyager Trike kit on it. Too bad, too because I loved it. I've since gotten rid of it and bought a sidecar setup. ABATE has written and published an article on this, and we have asked our local congressman to help, but so far no luck. If the law does get changed, I'd probably buy another one, but in PA, your rig is currently NOT legally a motorcycle or a trailer, and any motorcycle with one on it can not be inspected legally. I got that straight from PennDOT's Chief Legal Counsel in Harrisburg.

Don

 

Maybe you should use the given contact info, he may be able to point you to the specific statute that makes the system legal. Public officials rarely Know what they are doing. It would certainly be worth a phone call.

 

If you have any questions or concerns, please contact Charles (MTC, Inc. President) at (815) 434-7900.

[DONATALIE]

Please no nasty emails about my son's disability...I'm begging you:

 

Title 75 (the PA Vehicle Code), Section 101 (Definitions): A Motor-driven Cycle is not to exceed three wheels, period. Anything with more than three wheels, must have an enclosed cab, steering wheel, 5 MPH bumpers, seatbelts, etc. Anything with a saddle, where the rider sits ON the vehicle, not IN it, is a motorcycle/scooter/motor-driven pedalcycl (moped) and can not have more than three wheels in contact with the ground. Believe me, I did not want to get rid of my Voyager Trike, but I could not get my bike inspected with it on. In my previous post, I explained why the rig is not a trailer, so that is not an option. I also wanted to address the dealers' notion that the ADA would make the rig legal. First of all, that's not how ADA works. Nothing is automatic. If someone believes their ADA rights are being violated by the state (in this case, PennDOT), they have to bring legal action ($$$) against the allegedly offending party. Bear in mind, the state legislature has granted the authority to PennDOT to determine what criteria need to be met in order for a vehicle to pass the anual safety inspection (PA Title 67). If I think that ADA is being violated, I have to sue PennDOT on my son's behalf, (again $$$). And just because I think it's an ADA issue (which it might be, of course), doesn't mean that a judge will agree. I have spoken to two of them personally, and they both said that barring any change in the statutes or case law, they would have to side with PennDOT if the issue were brought before them. That was why I began this post in the first place. I wanted to prevent any other PA riders from ending up in the same boat I was. I bought the "trike" so I could take my severely disabled son on rides without the risk of him sliding off or forcing us to fall over (he has limited lower body control). However, when I went to get it inspected, three different dealers told me that they could not inspect it with the kit on it. One even showed me the bulletin that they had received from PennDOT cautioning them not to inspect motorcycles with more than three wheels on the ground. Note: if the mechanic ignores one of those bulletins, they can have their inspection license suspended and even revoked. Please don't think that I am bad-mouthing Voyager or any of the other "trike" systems out there, my son and I loved riding it. I just don't want to see someone else spend several thousand dollars on one, only to find out they can't get it inspected in PA. BTW, I ran into the exact same problem when I wanted to put a car tire on the back of my sidecar setup. This time, I checked first, before I spent the money to put it on. Again, I was told that it could not be inspected due to PennDOT regulations, under the authority granted to them by the state legislature. I tried to get my local congressman to help, but he's on the other side of the aisle, so I couldn't even get him to return my emails, phone calls and letters. Oh well...we have the hack now, so we're good.

[CaptainJoe]

Logically, a four wheel setup would provide more stability than a three wheeled vehicle, provided of course the wheel spacing is adequate.

 

I seem to remember all atv three wheelers being outlawed...

 

You can't buy an ATV three wheeler now, as they were inherently unstable.

 

That configeration must have been modified to allow that setup on three wheeled motorcycles?

 

As both, are kit's for a "motorcycle", seems to me they need to change the laws to allow them. There is no way people could have forseen the advances in technology so our laws are built in a way that allows them to be changed.

 

Contact the representatives in your area and get them worKing on it. Citing the Pittsburg police using these kits would be a good start. (personally verify first)

 

Good luck!