Electrical Drain?

[Bugsplat]

This one should get some really good responses!

Last evening while attending the local chapter (SCRC) monthly meeting I was talking with another RSV owner about issues with his Venture(2008). Seems his fuel pump went out and left him stranded a few month's ago. I brought up the mystery power drain that my 2006 was having if it set in the garage for more than a week. He stated that he had the same problem with his wifes BMW and also his Venture on one occasion. He was told it was related to the concrete garage floor and walls. Had to do with amount of moisture in garage and the age old 'Do not store a battery on a concrete floor' as it will drain it.

He was told to place a dehumidifier in his garage and te problem will go away. Well he did just that and says the problems is not near as bad as without one. He states the bikes can set for up to a month and still have cranking power. Is there anything to this theory?

[Herb In Texas]

In my less than humble opinon, Thats a croco bull. Even if concrete could (which it don,t) drain a battery, the battery would have to be in direct contact with the floor. As far as your battery drain problem, most likley relates to a failing battery.

[Yammer Dan]

I don't have a clue. This one will be interesting to watch.

[Bugsplat]

Herb in Texas,

 

Local dealer has replaced the battery twice and it continues. Voltmeter was hooked up to bike at their shop (sheet metal walls) for two weeks with no sign of any drain. Brought bike home and battery was dead in 1 1/2 weeks.

[LilBeaver]

Have you pulled each fuse and measured the current through each circuit on the bike? This will allow you to get an idea of what, if anything, is drawing power while the bike is 'off'.

 

Some drain is normal, I'll post more later (or someone else can jump in)... I've got a plane to get on.

 

[Monty]

The concrete theory is hokey. No way it could cause the drain problem. If you don't believe me, you could put a rubber mat under your kickstand, completely isolating your bike from the concrete, and see if it makes a difference.

 

Put a test light or meter in series with your battery, and pull fuses until the light goes out, or meter falls. This will narrow the problem down to one fused circuit. Then, you can check everything on that circuit to find the drain.

[RedRider]

I have had this happen with my bike in the garage (2000 RSV). EVERY TIME I found the problem was due to my not turning the key all the way off. Since it is in the garage, I leave the key in it. There is an ACC location between Run and Off. If the key position is left there, it will drain the battery.

 

Make sure to pull the key out (at least part way) to ensure the ignition switch is in the Off position and the battery problem will likely be taken care of.

 

Operator error rather than humidity or concrete.

 

RR

[Bugsplat]

The dealer tried to convince me that I was not turning the key to the off position as well. So I started doing just as you mentioned. When I pull into the garage and shut her off, I pull the key at least half way out of the switch then insert it fully before getting off the bike. Thisis a really good habit to get into by the way.

[Herb In Texas]

Got to go with Monty on this one. If you use your bike every day and have no problem, then let it sit for a week the electrical draw on the battery is fairly low. But none the less there. I really cant think of anything that draws when the key is off other than the radio memory, clock and odometer memory. does the radio back light go out when you switch off the key. If not the acc part of the switch is not disconecting. Some one help out here. Does the key switch activate a relay or is the acc power through the switch it self. Fishing in the dark her. If the back light in the radio control in fact switches off then the acc circuit is at least partly de-energizing. What relay could be hung on? I am lost. Need to look at a wiring diagram. do you have any aftermarket electrical items on the bike?

Edited November 19, 2009 by Herb In Texas
add ?

[LilBeaver]

As far as I know, on a completely stock bike the only component that is energized when the key is in the off position is the 'back-up' circuit. Which, as Herb mentioned, provides power to the radio amp and the speedometer unit to maintain the clock time, radio presets and trip odometer readings. This has a current draw in the neighborhood of hundreds of mili-amps (~300 mA if I recall correctly).

 

Possible sources of excess electrical drain:

- Key left in ACC position (which you have seemed to have pretty much ruled out)

- Accessory relay failed in the energized position (unlikely at that) providing a power feed from the battery to the accessory (you could detect this by noting any added accessories still energized when you turn the bike off)

- Short somewhere in wiring (or wiring harness) allowing for power draw to still occur with key in 'off' position.

- Bad battery (not a source of 'drain' as much as it is simply a problem of holding a charge)

 

In order to determine if you have some excess drain while in the off position you need to do some sort of electrical test. Either with an ammeter or a test light. If the problem is intermittent this may be an inconclusive test, but regardless, you should be able to deduce some information from it.

 

If you have an ammeter, I would suggest using the ammeter opposed to the test light; mainly so that you can get an idea of how much current is going through each circuit with the key off and also if you have a small current passing though a particular circuit it is possible (unlikely, but nevertheless possible) that the test lamp may not be bright enough to visually see the lamp illuminate even though there may be a current passing through that circuit.

 

Anyways, take your choice in testing apparatus and go to each fuse box. One fuse at a time do the following:

1) Remove fuse in the circuit to be inspected

2) Place ammeter probes across the contacts that the fuse connects to, record reading (NOTE: ensure that you have the ammeter set on the appropriate scale as you may be looking for something on the order of mA.)

3) If get a non-zero reading, record your results

4) Reinstall fuse and move to the next circuit.

Repeat 1-4 for all of the fuses in the bike.

5) If you have anything that is energized directly by the battery (not through a fuse box) go ahead and see if there is any current draw to those accessories while bike is off. To do this, either measure it through the inline fuse (same procedure as described above) or disconnect the wiring from the battery and complete the circuit using your ammeter.

 

Personally, I would start with the main 30A fuse for the bike (located behind the fuse box on the left side of the bike, behind where the passenger's left ankle would be adjacent to). Take the reading at the main fuse. Then take the reading at the 'back-up' fuse (not to be confused with the 'reverse' system ). If these two readings are the same you can conclusively say that you have either an intermittent problem or not so conclusively a battery problem or operator error and thusly do not need to continue investigating the electrical system in this manor.

 

 

Hope this helps. Good luck.

[LilBeaver]

On my 82 Goldwing I can remove the key when the ignition is in any position except for the 'ON' position. Including the ACC, OFF, Lock, and park position. I'll try this when I go home tonight but can you remove your key when the ignition is in the ACC position? I know that one should not be able to, but maybe it would be worth trying it intentionally to see if hte key will come out; just to be sure that your method works.

 

Good luck.

[Herb In Texas]

I agree with the Beaver. I looked at the wiring diagram provided by Dingy in the tech section. as best I can tell the only thing that should have battery voltage with the key (read switch) in the off position is the odometer fuse and the regulator/rectifiyer along with the condenser for the charge system. So after following The Beavers directions one other thing could be a failed diode in the rectifier. (letting current flow both ways). Allowing the battery to drain at a slow rate through the altenator windings. I don't think this would show a a dead short due to the fact of the amount of wire in the windings. and it is likley should this be the case you would show a low charge rate with a VOM across the battery with the engine running.

[Herb In Texas]

The condenser in the charge circuit goes to ground. following the ground back I see it to be common to many other circuits. So if the condenser ohm reading is not up to par it also could be the culprit. I have no clue what the reading should be.

[Herb In Texas]

Took a second look at the schematic. If the problem is in the reg/rec or the asociated condenser it will show up on the thirty amp main fuse as Lilbeaver has said.

[dingy]

The condenser in the charge circuit goes to ground. following the ground back I see it to be common to many other circuits. So if the condenser ohm reading is not up to par it also could be the culprit. I have no clue what the reading should be.

 

I don't believe that you can check a capacitor with an ohm meter accurately.

 

The reason being that an ohm meter has a bettery in its circuitry to provide current flow to resistors being checked. It is the amount of this current flow that is used by the ohm meter bridge circuits to calculate the resistance value.

 

The problem with checking a capacitor is the battery in the ohm meter starts charging the capacitor, thus giving a misleading current flow reading. A capacitor definition is an electrical device characterized by its capacity to store an electric charge. The ohm meter is providing a source of electrical energy to charge this capacitor.

 

In theory a capacitor should have an infinite ohms reading, as in an open circuit. The capacitor internals are two metallic surfaces separated by an insulator.

 

 

Gary

[Herb In Texas]

Understood Dingy, So if it should fail to ground that would show as a dead short? And if it were open?

[dingy]

Understood Dingy, So if it should fail to ground that would show as a dead short? And if it were open?

 

 

What you will see when you hook an ohm meter up to a functioning capacitor is an in initial low resistance reading that then tapers off to infinite.

 

This is due to the initial rush of current into the cap, then as it charges the current flow subsides. It is this high initial current flow that causes the meter to show low resistance.

 

Prior to testing a capacitor like this I would recommend shorting the two leads together to discharge any stored charge in the cap. This is to prevent ohm meter damage.

 

For an open cap you would see a high reading that does not change.

 

With an shorted cap you will see a zero or low reading that does not drop.

 

Use the highest ohms scale on meter and drop to lower scale levels repeating test.

Edited November 19, 2009 by dingy
revised open & shorted def's

[Herb In Texas]

Good to know. Thanks

[dingy]

Something else that I just thought of:

 

I am sort of old school, went to Industrial Electronics Tech school in early 70's and worked mostly with analog meters (type with a needle and scale). I use mostly a Simpon 260 VOM, I have a Beckman digital but I prefer the analog.

 

I don't know if this testing will work with a digital ohm meter.

 

Some of the more tech type guys here may need to chime in on this.

 

Gary

 

 

 

What you will see when you hook an ohm meter up to a functioning capacitor is an in initial low resistance reading that then tapers off to infinite.

 

This is due to the initial rush of current into the cap, then as it charges the current flow subsides. It is this high initial current flow that causes the meter to show low resistance.

 

Prior to testing a capacitor like this I would recommend shorting the two leads together to discharge any stored charge in the cap. This is to prevent ohm meter damage.

 

For an open cap you would see a high reading that does not change.

 

With an shorted cap you will see a zero or low reading that does not drop.

 

Use the highest ohms scale on meter and drop to lower scale levels repeating test.

Edited November 19, 2009 by dingy

[Monty]

I have a good digital multimeter that has a capacitor test setting. That way, the battery is taken out of the equation.

 

I wish I still had my Simpson, though, as you really need one of each to test everything, depending on impedance requirements.