help me plz new venture owner

[donphantasmo]

I've jumped a buddy's or two's bikes with a car before. I make sure the car is turned off. And the biggest thing is, it won't usually mess up an older bike. It's the newer ones that suffer because of the ECU.

You might not do too much damage to anything else, but the ECU will usually fry. Specially if the car is running. Also, if there is any short in the system, that's a very easy way to find out where it is, just follow the smoke!!!

I'll have to agree with Camos on this one!!!

[Guest HotMech]

I don't want to sound like a know-it-all here, and with that said...

 

I have been quietly reading the banter here, and have decided that I just can't resist.

 

I must add my .02 worth.

 

Since I have been in the business of vehicle repair for some 35 plus years, I feel I am qualified to speak on the subject. I'm not going to point any fingers, or say who I think is right or wrong. I will just explain it in the most user friendly way I can.

 

1st. electricty of the DC nature is what I am explaining.

2nd. A "Battery Charger" is not the same as a vehicles charging system.

3rd. Current from a battery charger is "forced" that is why the battery will "boil" Batteries don't acctually boil from heat to the water, it is what looks like boiling water, becasue of the gasses, (hydrogen and Oxygen, sulfer dioxide, and a couple more) coming out of the water, or electrolite, as it's known, making it look like it's "boiling. Think of a tall glass of fresh beer. different gas, but same idea.

4th. A Voltage regulator, is just that, a "voltage" regulator. With the system voltage regulated, the current is regulated by default.

5th a Voltage regulator, does not "ground" or short to ground, any current. It regulates the system voltage by limiting current to the "field windings" in the alternator.

If you were to apply full current to the field windings, there would be no more regulation, unless the system is overtaxed, load wise. ie. if the battery were dead or in a very low state of charge, and the lights, radio, and other accessories were on and requiring more current than the system could supply. In which case, the voltage would be limited by the alternators lack of capacity. (might even smoke a little)

6th. I see no mention of Brads Problem, or maybe the cause. In this case, the problem is due to the M/C's relatively small charging system. What are they, about 30 amps max or so? What has happened here is simple. The bike, less battery, is not the problem.

The real problem here is the battery in the car, or truck as it were. the charge rate of the "automotive battery" can far out pull the tiny charging system on the bike, so it is overloading the bike's alternator. Had the vehicle been running, this would not have been a problem. The vehicle's charging system would be taking care charging that battery. Seeing a correct voltage, 13.8vdc to about 14.2vdc, give or take, The bike's Voltage regulator would then cut back field winding current, and be at peace, as would the cars charging system. (with or without a battery in the M/C, as long as it was still hooked to the running car.)

7th BAtteries can "blow up" and do many times. It's happened to me. Batteries usually "blow up" because of internal arcing due to broken plate connections, thus setting off the hydrogen/O2 mix in the battery itself. Charging a M/C battery with a "Battery Charger designed for automotive batteries, is just stupid. ...nuff said. but charging a M/C battery with a car's "propperly opperating charging system, will not blow it up. Trying to charge a car battery with a M/C's charging system will probably make it smoke. (The bike that is)

 

I am only a trial member, who just recently aquired a VR. One that I have been searching for, for about two years. I am hoping to find a group to chat with, and discuss things with, inteligently. I am not trying to start, or continue a brawl, just trying to shed a little light on a rather technical subject. Hope this helps, Kerry

[Bummer]

Hi Kerry,

 

Welcome! I hope you like it here enough to stick around.

 

I'd like to bring your attention to a minor detail in your comment:

 

5th a Voltage regulator, does not "ground" or short to ground, any current.

 

Here are the wiring diagrams for the VR. You can also get a copy of the service manual.

 

What voltage regulator?

 

No alternator either. More of a magneto with a rectifier that shunts excess to ground.

 

I'm certainly not a professional mechanic, though I do have a shade tree. I've been wrong before. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong this time.

[painterman67]

I don't want to sound like a know-it-all here, and with that said...

 

I have been quietly reading the banter here, and have decided that I just can't resist.

 

I must add my .02 worth.

 

Since I have been in the business of vehicle repair for some 35 plus years, I feel I am qualified to speak on the subject. I'm not going to point any fingers, or say who I think is right or wrong. I will just explain it in the most user friendly way I can.

 

1st. electricty of the DC nature is what I am explaining.

2nd. A "Battery Charger" is not the same as a vehicles charging system.

3rd. Current from a battery charger is "forced" that is why the battery will "boil" Batteries don't acctually boil from heat to the water, it is what looks like boiling water, becasue of the gasses, (hydrogen and Oxygen, sulfer dioxide, and a couple more) coming out of the water, or electrolite, as it's known, making it look like it's "boiling. Think of a tall glass of fresh beer. different gas, but same idea.

4th. A Voltage regulator, is just that, a "voltage" regulator. With the system voltage regulated, the current is regulated by default.

5th a Voltage regulator, does not "ground" or short to ground, any current. It regulates the system voltage by limiting current to the "field windings" in the alternator.

If you were to apply full current to the field windings, there would be no more regulation, unless the system is overtaxed, load wise. ie. if the battery were dead or in a very low state of charge, and the lights, radio, and other accessories were on and requiring more current than the system could supply. In which case, the voltage would be limited by the alternators lack of capacity. (might even smoke a little)

6th. I see no mention of Brads Problem, or maybe the cause. In this case, the problem is due to the M/C's relatively small charging system. What are they, about 30 amps max or so? What has happened here is simple. The bike, less battery, is not the problem.

The real problem here is the battery in the car, or truck as it were. the charge rate of the "automotive battery" can far out pull the tiny charging system on the bike, so it is overloading the bike's alternator. Had the vehicle been running, this would not have been a problem. The vehicle's charging system would be taking care charging that battery. Seeing a correct voltage, 13.8vdc to about 14.2vdc, give or take, The bike's Voltage regulator would then cut back field winding current, and be at peace, as would the cars charging system. (with or without a battery in the M/C, as long as it was still hooked to the running car.)

7th BAtteries can "blow up" and do many times. It's happened to me. Batteries usually "blow up" because of internal arcing due to broken plate connections, thus setting off the hydrogen/O2 mix in the battery itself. Charging a M/C battery with a "Battery Charger designed for automotive batteries, is just stupid. ...nuff said. but charging a M/C battery with a car's "propperly opperating charging system, will not blow it up. Trying to charge a car battery with a M/C's charging system will probably make it smoke. (The bike that is)

 

I am only a trial member, who just recently aquired a VR. One that I have been searching for, for about two years. I am hoping to find a group to chat with, and discuss things with, inteligently. I am not trying to start, or continue a brawl, just trying to shed a little light on a rather technical subject. Hope this helps, Kerry

 

 

 

 

WElcome aboard,

 

Hopefully your point of view will be taken for whats its worth. ANd you havent thrown fuel on the fire so to speak. This is a conversation that has been hashed out several times with no-one agreiing on the same thing on this site. I'm no mechanic so I want get into the discusion.

 

Now with that said , folks cant we all just get along and aswer the original question.

 

Not sure if it was answerd cmpletely.

 

TRhe white wires are from the Regulator rectifier to stator connection. had the same problem on mu 91. And solserd together as you did. Not sure why the bike willnot crank with the headlight fuse installed . And as ststed before, my first place to look for why the bike cuts off when you put it in gear would be to check if the side stand is down. If not then maybey check the side stand swiutch. My wifes shadow was doing the same thing with the stand down or up. I took the swithch off and apart cleaned it and the connections and it started working correctly. the sisde stand switch is in a place that collects oil if the bike leaks a little.

 

 

 

Hope you get the answers you need.

 

 

David

[bongobobny]

OK the real problem is most likely your sidestand switch as they fail quite frequently. If you have any technical savy then check the resistance across the contacts. One set is connected when the switch is down, and the other is connected when it is up. The center wire is comon to both sets of contacts. If there is more than an ohm or two, replace the switch. Mine was bad with 6 ohms resistance!!

 

You can temporarily tie al 3 wires together, and if the switch is bad, the problem wil go away.

 

 

 

 

Not to stir the pot, but, a bike with NO electrical problems wil not draw any more current than normal, so a bizillion batterys hooked up in parallel will not do a thing. I was an Electronics Tech for over 35 years (Now electrohydraulic) so I think I know what I'm talking about...

[rumboogy]

I'm no electrician, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, and I STILL don't know what the hell ya'll are talking about.

[naturbar]

bartvaughan came on looking for a solution to his problem - some jumped in and offered advice....which over time became more of a testosterone induced lesson in electronics 101. i hope bart leaves with a good impression of our family. our (VR) house should have a sign at the front door " please check EGO's before entering. i was in the electronic industry for 23 years and have forgotten most of what i thought i knew - so i sit back and read with interest the great debate.

[Kirby]

I'm no electrician, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, and I STILL don't know what the hell ya'll are talking about.

Ditto

[Dano]

Hi Bart, welcome to the site and please ignore everyone else here who is not dealing with your problem. This discussion should have been moved to a new thread.

 

There are two reasons for your bike to die when shifting into first. One has already been explained via the kickstand switch. The other is tied to your clutch system. You stated previously "the clutch was dry" by which I assume there was no fluid in your master cylinder or the slave cylinder. If by now you have properly installed new fluid and bled the slave cylinder, then most likely the clutch plates are sticking together from being in contact under spring pressure for so long. The oil (or lack of it) will cause the plates to stick together (almost like a varnish) until they are disassembled and cleaned or "busted loose" by off idle (about 1500rpm) dumping of the clutch and seeing if that will work. How long has the bike sat? It may require removal of the right side cover and removal of the clutch plate stack for a little clean-up.

 

On the stator issue, please let us know if you have any electrical/mechanical background and we'll help you thru this. A service manual is available for you to download and print in the 1st gen tech section located under forums, an invaluable tool for these situations.

 

Matter of fact, to shorten the thread, why don't you start a new thread with your findings?

 

Dan

 

PS feel free to PM me if you've got any questions.

[Guest HotMech]

Hi Kerry,

 

 

 

 

 

Here are the wiring diagrams for the VR. You can also get a copy of the service manual.

 

What voltage regulator?

 

No alternator either. More of a magneto with a rectifier that shunts excess to ground.

 

I'm certainly not a professional mechanic, though I do have a shade tree. I've been wrong before. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong this time.

 

I'm not trying to win an argument here, but...

 

Bummer, I must ask you to look at those diagrams you linked me to.

I did.

In the very first one, there is a diagram of what is labeled, A.C. Generator (aka altrernator) A Magneto, is a D.C. generator, and as such, does not need a "Rectifier".

A "Rectifier" is a group of diodes, two for each coil in the alternator, (aka A.C. generator) one with it's anode to ground and one with it's cathode to the positive.

this deletes the waveform crossover to make D.C voltage from A.C voltage. The "rectifier", does ground, one half of the waveform, and send the other half to the charging system output. The "regulator", limits current to the field windings. ( the field winding in these bikes is shown, in the diagram, as what might look like the Yamaha "Tuning Fork". Upsidedown Of course.)

 

The Voltage regulating circuit is just combined within the rectifier unit.

SO, Yes, these bikes do have an alternator and and a voltage regulator.

 

BTW, the reason I stress voltage regulator, is that a battery charger, found in most shops, is "current regulated" Not voltage regulated, like a car's, (or bike's) charging system.

 

Like I said, I'm not trying to win any thing here, just providing information.

 

 

Now for Bart's problem...

 

...I'll have to go back and re read the thread. (I hate getting old)

K

Edited January 26, 2010 by HotMech

[Bummer]

HotMech, I'm not trying to have an argument, and I certainly don't want to hijack Bart's thread. I'm just trying to understand my machine.

 

Sorry Bart.