Solenoid Question

[CrazyHorse]

It appears my solenoid maybe dead. I had a problem with the solenoid just clicking sometimes and sometimes the bike would not start at all sometimes I would press the start button several times and get nothing and sometimes I would get it to turn over. Now nothing no clicking no starting. Jumped the solenoid bike started right up. Disconected the Blue/white wire at the small terminal and put a test light and volmeter in between and connected to the positive terminal when I hit the start switch the test light lit up and when I used the voltmeter I got 12+ volts. So I'm guessing its dead a solenoid. I have searched the site for a small car/small engine replacement instead of the Yamaha one and havent been able to find a good suggestion of one to use anyone have one?

[Monty]

Any 12 volt solenoid should work. Space is the main concern. You could check out a lawn mower shop, and they may have a smaller one you could use.

[dingy]

Can you get an amperage reading in series with the solenoid coil?

 

Disconnect Blue/White white at connector & put positive lead towards solenoid & negative lead towards wire harness on Blue/White wire.

 

I worked for a number of years in Railroad signaling and learned that voltage is a poor indicator of circuit condition.

 

You can read a voltage difference, but a bad connection may not be allowing sufficient current flow to actuate solenoid.

[CrazyHorse]

Can you get an amperage reading in series with the solenoid coil?

 

Disconnect Blue/White white at connector & put positive lead towards solenoid & negative lead towards wire harness on Blue/White wire.

 

I worked for a number of years in Railroad signaling and learned that voltage is a poor indicator of circuit condition.

 

You can read a voltage difference, but a bad connection may not be allowing sufficient current flow to actuate solenoid.

 

Gary I'm not sure I understand this can you explain a little further. Electronics is not my forte but I'd like to learn. I'll have to try it tommorow gave up tonight. I'll let you know how it goes.

[dingy]

Voltage is a measurement in parallel with the power source.

 

One probe on positive side of circuit and other on negative side.

 

In a simple circuit such as a battery with a relay across the positive & negative side of the battery, you will read the battery voltage across the terminals.

 

Amperage is the reading that you would get when you break the circuit at any given point and insert an amp meter in series with the circuit. The amperage in any given circuit will be determined by a series of formulas known as ohm's law. The pertinent one here is that the current in a circuit is equal to the voltage divided by the resistance value of the series circuit.

 

Say you have a 12 volt battery and you connect the coil leads of a 100 ohm relay in series with the positive & negative terminals of the battery. If you take a voltage reading across the coil leads of the relay, you will read 12 volts.. If you disconnect one coil lead and insert your meter in series you will read .12 amps current flow.

 

In a simple series circuit, amps will be consistent at any point in the circuit.

 

Where it becomes more complex is to consider a circuit as above with a relay and a switch in series. After all a relay across a battery with no switching is a fairly useless circuit. An example of this on the Venture would be the starter solenoid. In actuality, when you press the starter button on the handle bar you are putting the battery in series with the coil of the solenoid, Also in this series circuit is the contacts in the starter push button and the contacts of the starting circuit cut-out relay, as well all of the associated cable connectors.

 

On an open series circuit, there is no voltage drop across the circuit. The voltage drop occurs at points of resistance, in this case the coil of the relay. Since there is no voltage drop (or loss), any point you read the voltage in the circuit will show full voltage.

 

Every relay has what is known as a pick up current value. This is the minimum current flow through the coils that is required to cause the cause the relay to activate. In the case of the 100 ohm relay mentioned above, the pickup amperage is less than working value of .12 amps. I'm guessing somewhere around .05 amps.

 

Where this becomes a factor is if you have a high resistance connection at some point in the circuit, there may not be sufficient current flow to activate the relay, but still be enough to read the voltage in the circuit.

 

I have just checked an extra solenoid that I have off of an 84 Venture.It has a coil resistance of about 5 ohms. Using the ohms law and assuming a battery voltage of 13.5 volts, you should read about 2.7 amps in series with the coil of a working starter solenoid.

 

Hope this has not confused you more.

 

Gary

[camos]

Did you jump the solenoid or did you jump the starter? A solinoid has two circuits. One operated by the start button puts power to a coil activated switch which applies poer to the starter. Jumping the solenoid by applying power to the coil which activates the switch that applies power to the starter. On the other hand, putting power to the large wire at the solenoid that is connected to the starter would essentially jump the starter.

 

Before you assume a bad solenoid try connecting a known good battery, car or truck but not while running. If the engine starts the problem is with the bike battery or the circuit through the start button to the solenoid coil. Clicking is almost always a sign of a poor connection in the starting circuit. Not just the hot side but the ground connections as well.

[mbrood]

With each activation, the coil inside energizes and pulls a plunger down that bridges the two HEAVY lugs, sending major current to the starter Each make and break generates a little spark. Over time those little sparks build up spots of carbon and eventually the contact resistance rises to a point where it's not enough to turn the starter and it just goes "click". Old automotive solenoids were easy, pull them apart and swipe a file across the contacts. These are sealed units and have to just be replaced.

 

starter relay 36Y-81940-00-00 $46.59 at zanotti

 

There have been a few substitutes mentioned in the past. Just remember you want one that was designed for the heavy current load these starters put on them.

[CrazyHorse]

With each activation, the coil inside energizes and pulls a plunger down that bridges the two HEAVY lugs, sending major current to the starter Each make and break generates a little spark. Over time those little sparks build up spots of carbon and eventually the contact resistance rises to a point where it's not enough to turn the starter and it just goes "click". Old automotive solenoids were easy, pull them apart and swipe a file across the contacts. These are sealed units and have to just be replaced.

 

starter relay 36Y-81940-00-00 $46.59 at zanotti

 

There have been a few substitutes mentioned in the past. Just remember you want one that was designed for the heavy current load these starters put on them.

 

Thanks mbrood I looked at dismantling it and your right it ain't gonna happen.

 

Did you jump the solenoid or did you jump the starter? A solinoid has two circuits. One operated by the start button puts power to a coil activated switch which applies poer to the starter. Jumping the solenoid by applying power to the coil which activates the switch that applies power to the starter. On the other hand, putting power to the large wire at the solenoid that is connected to the starter would essentially jump the starter.

 

Before you assume a bad solenoid try connecting a known good battery, car or truck but not while running. If the engine starts the problem is with the bike battery or the circuit through the start button to the solenoid coil. Clicking is almost always a sign of a poor connection in the starting circuit. Not just the hot side but the ground connections as well.

 

Jumped the solenoid screwdriver across both thick posts started right up. Battery brand new Odyssey.

 

Voltage is a measurement in parallel with the power source.

 

One probe on positive side of circuit and other on negative side.

 

In a simple circuit such as a battery with a relay across the positive & negative side of the battery, you will read the battery voltage across the terminals.

 

Amperage is the reading that you would get when you break the circuit at any given point and insert an amp meter in series with the circuit. The amperage in any given circuit will be determined by a series of formulas known as ohm's law. The pertinent one here is that the current in a circuit is equal to the voltage divided by the resistance value of the series circuit.

 

Say you have a 12 volt battery and you connect the coil leads of a 100 ohm relay in series with the positive & negative terminals of the battery. If you take a voltage reading across the coil leads of the relay, you will read 12 volts.. If you disconnect one coil lead and insert your meter in series you will read .12 amps current flow.

 

In a simple series circuit, amps will be consistent at any point in the circuit.

 

Where it becomes more complex is to consider a circuit as above with a relay and a switch in series. After all a relay across a battery with no switching is a fairly useless circuit. An example of this on the Venture would be the starter solenoid. In actuality, when you press the starter button on the handle bar you are putting the battery in series with the coil of the solenoid, Also in this series circuit is the contacts in the starter push button and the contacts of the starting circuit cut-out relay, as well all of the associated cable connectors.

 

On an open series circuit, there is no voltage drop across the circuit. The voltage drop occurs at points of resistance, in this case the coil of the relay. Since there is no voltage drop (or loss), any point you read the voltage in the circuit will show full voltage.

 

Every relay has what is known as a pick up current value. This is the minimum current flow through the coils that is required to cause the cause the relay to activate. In the case of the 100 ohm relay mentioned above, the pickup amperage is less than working value of .12 amps. I'm guessing somewhere around .05 amps.

 

Where this becomes a factor is if you have a high resistance connection at some point in the circuit, there may not be sufficient current flow to activate the relay, but still be enough to read the voltage in the circuit.

 

I have just checked an extra solenoid that I have off of an 84 Venture.It has a coil resistance of about 5 ohms. Using the ohms law and assuming a battery voltage of 13.5 volts, you should read about 2.7 amps in series with the coil of a working starter solenoid.

 

Hope this has not confused you more.

 

Gary

 

No Gary that was great. Gonna try it out. I now understand what you said in the first post.

[mbrood]

I tore mine apart and with the molded top, it was NEVER going back together. But here are the "contact faces"... doesn't really look that bad... but all mine would do was go "click"...

 

http://www.bergall.org/temp/venture/solenoid.jpg

[CrazyHorse]

I tore mine apart and with the molded top, it was NEVER going back together. But here are the "contact faces"... doesn't really look that bad... but all mine would do was go "click"...

 

http://www.bergall.org/temp/venture/solenoid.jpg

 

 

Mine would click now its nothing.

[skydoc_17]

Hey Jimbob,

There is one on Ebay, it has a guarantee, Ebay item # 120477605253

Hope this helps,

Earl

[camos]

If you ground one of the two small contacts and put power to the other, that will activate the coil which activates the main starter circuit. If the engine starts then there is a problem between the solenoid coil and the battery. Either the start switch, frame ground or the battery pos or neg. If the engine doesn't start the problem is with the main contact points in the solenoid, the main start circuit connectors or the starter. Best practice is to properly test before replacing or demolishing.

 

It is fun demolishing things though.

[CrazyHorse]

If you ground one of the two small contacts and put power to the other, that will activate the coil which activates the main starter circuit. If the engine starts then there is a problem between the solenoid coil and the battery. Either the start switch, frame ground or the battery pos or neg. If the engine doesn't start the problem is with the main contact points in the solenoid, the main start circuit connectors or the starter. Best practice is to properly test before replacing or demolishing.

 

It is fun demolishing things though.

Thanks for the info

[CrazyHorse]

I'm just gonna replace the solenoid I found there are many yamaha's that use this particular solenoid. I just typed in Yahama solenoid on ebay and found many that matched the design of this one. Does anyone have a cross reference of motorcycle parts where one could look up what parts bikes have in common or know where one can be gotten?

[dingy]

Check this thread I found.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=29405&highlight=SOLENOID

 

Gary