Oil Friction Modifiers

[Black Owl]

Does your motor oil contain friction modifiers?

 

Friction modifiers and mild antiwear agents are polar molecules added to lubricants for the purpose of minimizing light surface contacts (sliding and rolling) that may occur in a given machine design. These are also called boundary lubrication additives. Esters and natural and synthetic fatty acids, and some solid materials such as graphite and molybdenum disulfide, are used for these purposes.

These molecules have a polar end (head) and an oil-soluble end (tail). Once placed into service, the polar end of the molecule finds a metal surface and attaches itself. If one could see the orientation of the molecules on the surface, it would appear something like the fibers of a carpet, with each molecule stacked vertically beside the others.

As long at the frictional contact is light, these molecules provide a cushioning effect when one of the coated surfaces connects with another coated surface. If the contact is heavy, then the molecules are brushed off, eliminating any potential benefit of the additive.

When the machine designer anticipates more than light surface contact (from shock loading for instance) then the designer would select a stronger type of friction modifier characterized as an antiwear additive. Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate is a common antiwear agent. This type of additive literally reacts with the metal surface when the reaction energy (temperature) is high enough. The reaction layer provides sacrificial surface protection.

As the loading and metallic contact increase, the strength of additive and the strength of the reaction process increases. This leads to the use of sulphur-phosphorus based EP chemicals. The EP additives form organo-metallic salts on the loaded surfaces that serve as sacrificial films to protect against aggressive surface damage.

[Tartan Terror]

This is important to MCs. Our bikes use a wet clutch which means the clutch is coated in oil. If the correct oil isnt used or if you use a car or truck oil that has friction modifiers in it you will most likely experience a clutch slipping issue.

[KiteSquid]

black owl,

 

did you find this information at this URL?

 

http://www.lube-tips.com/focus/2005_02_02.htm

 

As Tartan Terror stated, dont use oils with friction modifiers in wet clutch applications like the RSV and a LOT of other motorcycles on the market today, unless you like to replace clutches often.

[Condor]

That make's a strong case for dry clutches.......

[SamB]

I just switched to Rotella T Synthetic based on advice from the site and I still have clutch slippage!!! Whats up with that?

 

Does anyone know of a readily available MC oil that does not have the modifiers in it?

[Sleeperhawk]

I just switched to Rotella T Synthetic based on advice from the site and I still have clutch slippage!!! Whats up with that?

 

Does anyone know of a readily available MC oil that does not have the modifiers in it?

 

 

If your clutch was slipping before you switched oils, you will still have the problem. Just switching oil on a clutch already slipping will not fix your clutch.

[SamB]

It was slipping becase I put in Mobil 1 auto syn auto oil. I drained and flushed it and went to the Rotella .. still there.

[Condor]

It was slipping becase I put in Mobil 1 auto syn auto oil. I drained and flushed it and went to the Rotella .. still there.

 

You might try putting a shot of Sea Foam in the crank case to clean out any of the residual 'friction inhanced' oil. If that doesn't cure it then it could be half a dozen other things that could cause it to slip. Do a search on the board for 'clutch repair' or 'clutch slipping'. It's been discussed ad nausium......

[SamB]

Just had a bad thought, after viewing some of these posts .. At 45.000 miles , it might be my clutch and not the oil.. Grim..

[Condor]

Just had a bad thought, after viewing some of these posts .. At 45.000 miles , it might be my clutch and not the oil.. Grim..

 

Could be. Maybe it's time for a new set of discs?? It all depends on your clutching habits. Rich-99 didn't change his out until somewhere around 80K.... However.... if the clutch didn't slip before adding the 'FI' oil then it's probably left over oil that's causing the problem...

[SamB]

Condor

 

Thanks for the reply. I am assuming that Rotell T syn does not have the modifiers. I was advised early on that it was a good MC oil.

 

I orginaly used Castrol GPS syn and had no problem . I just could not find it readily.

[Redneck]

Once the friction modifiers are embed into the clutch plates you will never get them all out. If your clutch is still usable just keep running it and it will get better as the additives wear out provided the friction modifiers are the cause of the problem. How bad is the slip?

[hig4s]

This is important to MCs. Our bikes use a wet clutch which means the clutch is coated in oil. If the correct oil isnt used or if you use a car or truck oil that has friction modifiers in it you will most likely experience a clutch slipping issue.

 

The terminology here is not quite right. Technically all oils have friction modifiers. Where the wet-clutch has issues is with those friction modifiers that allow an oil to be rated "Energy Conserving"

[SamB]

Its not real bad , I notice it when the revs are up in say 3rd and I shift up and crank it on , the RPM goes up higher that the speed increase . You can definetly hear and feel it. If I apply power easy its not noticable.

[Condor]

Condor

 

Thanks for the reply. I am assuming that Rotell T syn does not have the modifiers. I was advised early on that it was a good MC oil.

 

I orginaly used Castrol GPS syn and had no problem . I just could not find it readily.

 

This is my first time with Rotella 15-40 Sam. It came highly recommended on the board so I thought, what the heck, I'll give it a try. Up til now I'd been using Valvoline MC specific oil. 10-40 in the winter, and 20-50 in the summer. I just thought 15-40 would be a happy all year round medium... I searched all over the Rotella bottle and couldn't find anything that even remotely suggested that it had modifiers, but I think I read somewhere where there are two different types...hence the big search. I'd been using Castrol GTX 20-50 in just about everything I've owned for the last 30 years, and HDHTR uses it in his 90VR with 165K on it, but when I picked up my first VR I wanted to find something made for a scoot, and ran into the Valvoline. I'll know better in a few months just how well the Rotella works....

[SamB]

I am thinking I will go back to the Castrol and try to find a big supply to hold onto. I used it in my V Star and this bike and had no problems. My problems started when I started changing oils.

 

Its like a self inflicted gunshot wound.

[Black Owl]

black owl,

 

did you find this information at this URL?

 

http://www.lube-tips.com/focus/2005_02_02.htm

 

As Tartan Terror stated, dont use oils with friction modifiers in wet clutch applications like the RSV and a LOT of other motorcycles on the market today, unless you like to replace clutches often.

 

As church, Different pew. They just republished the info in the Sep 2007 news letter............

[RSTDinPA]

Sam add a fair amount of Sea Foam or Marvel Mystery oil into the crankcase and let the bike run until hot. Go throught the gears with authority. Then drain and add back a good "non-energy conserving" oil. I user the dino Rotella 15-40 during the summer months and the Rotella 5-40 syn during the cooler months. Rotella definitely is a great oil for these bikes. Given that your plates are not the cause of the cause of your slipping, the Se Foam/Marvel will cleean most of the modifiers off the plates. It may take a couple hundred mile of riding and really stirrling the gears to get it all clean up.

[Locomotive]

If you have questions about friction modifiers go to www.bobistheoilguy for answers.

[Steve S]

I have only used Yama-Lube in my ride, 48K miles, and I have some clutch slippage if I shift too hard from 1st to 2nd or 2nd to 3rd. Of course I can be an agressive rider sometimes .. Thinking very seriously about a Barnett upgrade this winter. It would make a nice Christmas present for the wife. Of course I would have to get the "Gold Plated" model... She does seem to get upset when I make it pull the front wheel off the ground in 2nd..... Hmmmmm wonder if that is why the clutch slips some....

[Guest wildcelt]

I have always been partial to Castrol oils and I was pleased when I saw Castrol Techion in the stores. It is for trucks as is Rotella so it does not have the friction modifiers.

 

I found it at Walmart and Advance Auto for about $9.00 a gallon

[SamB]

Well, after putting in an oil with FM , I changed oil 3 times. Then I dropped the oil and put in a gallon of Sea Foam and ran it about 5 minutes( it was hard to keep running as it had no oil pressure)

 

I have improved on the clutch slipping to the point that it will only slip now when everything is cold. Once it heats up good there is no problem. Still .. I am paying dearly for putting Non MC oil in my RSV.

[SamB]

This brings me to another question. I have heard that once you go to syn oil , going back to dino oil was not a good thing. Whats up with that?

[bikenut]

Sam

When I had My 99 venture it was doing the same thingand I got all new disks and plates to put in myself and when I pulled it apart everthing looked good inside. I think it is your clutch spring getting weak so use two on top of each other or but in the Barnet conversion. I have that in my 2006 and I run Ams oil 20/50 with 10% lucus oil stablelizer additive and have 15000 miles on it running it that way with no problems at all.

It 's not the oil but it is the spring on your clutch that is going bad or weak on you. I run two springs on my 1986 Venture trike and it pulls hard but it does not slip at all no matter how hard I get on it. The cheapest would be to put the second spring in.

Bikenut:080402gudl_prv:

[Condor]

Well, after putting in an oil with FM , I changed oil 3 times. Then I dropped the oil and put in a gallon of Sea Foam and ran it about 5 minutes( it was hard to keep running as it had no oil pressure)

 

I have improved on the clutch slipping to the point that it will only slip now when everything is cold. Once it heats up good there is no problem. Still .. I am paying dearly for putting Non MC oil in my RSV.

 

I don't think running pure Sea Foam in the engine was what was suggested. Adding Sea Foam to the dino oil for a couple of changes was, and is recommended on the Sea Foam website. Hope nothing was damaged internally when you did this. Bet it was super clean afterwards.....