New Clutch Installed - Now Creeping

[MasterGuns]

First off, I'd like to thank JB (Lonestarmedic) for riding all the way to Aledo from San Antone (300 miles) to help me checkout and replace if necessary the shift segment (the thingy with the six pins). After eating a steak and shooting the bull Friday evening we turned to Saturday morning. In order to check out the shift segment, we had to pull the entire clutch basket. Well, to both of our surprise the segment looked great and proceeded to reassemble the clutch. Since it was already apart, we installed new friction plates and a new spring, all OEM. Ran the bike while on the center stand and could hardly stop the back tire while idling in first gear. Fired up and rode the bike Saturday afternoon and at first the shifting seemed to improve but soon became even more difficult. In addition the bike now creeped while idling in gear. Disassembled it again to make absolutely sure all was correct. Everything looked ok. Reassembled everything again. While testing it on the centerstand and idling in first. The rear tire still spun and was difficult to stop. It was quite apparent the bike would still creep. If anyone can provide assistance, here are some questions:

 

1) The part identified as #2 (thrust washer) in the OEM illustration, appears to be placed on the shaft just "after" installing the basket. With the basket fully seated the thrust washer slides past all shaft splines and floats on the shaft just next to the clutch basket. This seems to be the way it was assembled before we tore it apart but the positioning of this thrust washer just doesn't seem correct. Any comments and/or advise on if this is correct?

 

The problem seems to be that even though the clutch basket is installed correctly, there isn't enough travel being provided for the clutch plates to be fully released when the clutch handle is pulled. The master cylinder has been recently rebuilt and the slave is brand new as well. There is no air in the lines either.

 

What on earth can be the problem? Any help or advise would be greatly appreciated. I hope someone out there is intimately familiar with the lst Edition clutch assembly and can guide me correctly. Thanks

Edited September 28, 2009 by MasterGuns

[Condor]

If I remember correctly when I did the '83 I ran into that problem too, or at least something along that line... Anyway something didn't look right so I took it apart and reassembled the way I 'thought' it should go together and it worked great. Think it had something to do with the nut being upside down?? One other thing you might check is with the pressure plate off pull on the lever to see how much movement you're getting on the rod. I rebuilt the master and replaced the slave with a new one as well. Good luck....

[lonestarmedic]

Herb- I am going to open the clutch on the old chassis out back and check the parts. That washer bugs me. I will do surgery tomorrow night. Thought- clutch hose possibly swelling as pressure is applied. That is a reason for mushy brakes. Might eyeball the hose for deterioration. But we did get the lawnmower fixed so all was not a loss. And tightened the cables on the Harley battery.

 

 

I got it! You were working on the wrong bike!

 

JB

[Venturous Randy]

Are you sure that you put the clutch rod in correctly. If you put it in backwards it will not work.

RandyA

[Marcarl]

Couple of things here.

When I did my clutch there was a washer that I thought should go where I thought it should be, but eneded up going where Yamaha had designed it to go,,, and if I remember correctly it ended up going on before the basket. Yep I could shift all right, not very good, but it would shift, but it would not stop.

Also, the clutch bolts are not very tight, use only 8 INCH pounds, not foot pounds, on these,, hardley seems to be tight, but it works.

[MasterGuns]

Are you sure that you put the clutch rod in correctly. If you put it in backwards it will not work.

RandyA

 

Randy, Not sure which clutch rod you are referring to. If you are talking about the long clutch rod that goes from the slave to the clutch, we didn't pull that out. If you are referring to the small clutch rod that enters the pressure plate, that particular parts is impossible to install backwards. One end is smaller than the other and if install backwards the pressure plate wouldn't seat at all. But, I will check that out just in case because this thing has got me baffled.

[MasterGuns]

Couple of things here.

When I did my clutch there was a washer that I thought should go where I thought it should be, but eneded up going where Yamaha had designed it to go,,, and if I remember correctly it ended up going on before the basket. Yep I could shift all right, not very good, but it would shift, but it would not stop.

Also, the clutch bolts are not very tight, use only 8 INCH pounds, not foot pounds, on these,, hardley seems to be tight, but it works.

 

All I can say at this point is that large thrust washer you are referring to sure seems to be in the wrong place. At least as shown in the parts list. Since the ID of this washer is splined, sure seems to me it is designed to be riding on splines when seated. According to the diagram it is not. Lonestarmedic is going to pull apart the clutch basket on his parts bike and let me know what he finds. Sooner or later someone with a lot of experience with these clutch assemblies guide me. Thanks

[MasterGuns]

If I remember correctly when I did the '83 I ran into that problem too, or at least something along that line... Anyway something didn't look right so I took it apart and reassembled the way I 'thought' it should go together and it worked great. Think it had something to do with the nut being upside down?? One other thing you might check is with the pressure plate off pull on the lever to see how much movement you're getting on the rod. I rebuilt the master and replaced the slave with a new one as well. Good luck....

 

I think you are referring to the large 30mm nut that holds the basket in. I'll will check that out as soon as possible. Since the is a groove cut into one side of that nut, it may be designed for part of the boss to slide in that groove. You may have it on something here. Thanks

[Rocket]

All I can say at this point is that large thrust washer you are referring to sure seems to be in the wrong place. At least as shown in the parts list. Since the ID of this washer is splined, sure seems to me it is designed to be riding on splines when seated. According to the diagram it is not.

 

The parts list is correct, it sits between the inner & outer baskets. It is splined to keep the inner hole size as small as possible, to my way of thinking about it. That threw me off the first time too, until I looked closer at the parts list.

[MasterGuns]

The parts list is correct, it sits between the inner & outer baskets. It is splined to keep the inner hole size as small as possible, to my way of thinking about it. That threw me off the first time too, until I looked closer at the parts list.

 

When you state "inner and outer" baskets, do you mean the "basket" and the "clutch boss"? Also what throws me off, is that once the basket is slipped over the splined shaft and fully seated, then the thrust washer is slid on the splines, the washer actually slides past the splines. It actually comes to rest on the shaft "past" the splines and in a groved portion of the shaft. This means is can move side to side because the groved area of the shaft is a much smaller width that the id of the washer. If this is the correct installation procedure, is surely looks like a very poor design to me. What do you think about this? Am I seeing things or am I doing something wrong? Perhaps I should try taking a couple pics of what I am trying to communicate. Thanks

[Owen]

I am no mechanic, however I read about one on the internet...

 

On the Vmax forum I saw some clutch posts that were addressing a similuar problem. Here was the statement that turned out to be the fix for 'creeping' after a clutch repair.

 

When reinstalling the steel plates, make sure they are all facing the same direction. If you look closely at them, you will see all the edges on one side are slightly rounded, while the other side is sharp, as a result of the die cutting process. Mixing the direction of these will cause the bike to creep with the clutch disengaged.

 

Maybe this applies...

[Squeeze]

When you state "inner and outer" baskets, do you mean the "basket" and the "clutch boss"? Also what throws me off, is that once the basket is slipped over the splined shaft and fully seated, then the thrust washer is slid on the splines, the washer actually slides past the splines. It actually comes to rest on the shaft "past" the splines and in a groved portion of the shaft. This means is can move side to side because the groved area of the shaft is a much smaller width that the id of the washer. If this is the correct installation procedure, is surely looks like a very poor design to me. What do you think about this? Am I seeing things or am I doing something wrong? Perhaps I should try taking a couple pics of what I am trying to communicate. Thanks

 

You did it right the first Time. The splined Thrust Washer goes in between Clutch Basket and Clutch Boss(inner Hub). And it sits behind the Spline when it's in Place. Rocket is right with his Thoughts. The Spline is on the Washer to keep the Hole at minimum Size. Which keeps the Washer more centered when the whole Assemble is turning at 4000 Rpm.

 

What i found is you need to push the mushroom shaped Clutch Rod always back when working on the Clutch.

 

Owen's Advise with the directional Friction Plates is a good one too. They have a sharp and a smooth Edge. I allways mount them the Way that i need more Power to push them out, because i'd rather have a small Problem when disengaging the Clutch than locking it.Which means the sharp Edge allways faces to the outside ot the Motor. YOu also might need to check the Fingers on the Clutch Basket and the rectangular "Splines" where the Steel Plates sit on at the Clutch Hub. The you can feel the Marks significantly there, this will cause Restriction on the Movement of all Plates and therefore limit Travel of the Plates and hindering the Disengagement of the Clutch.

[MasterGuns]

Squeeze, I just pulled the clutch assembly apart again to check the steel plates placement; sharp edge all pointing the same way. The steel plates were all mixed up; sharp edges not all the same way. So when I reinstalled them all with the sharp edge towards the motor because I didn't know any better. After reinstalling, I ran the motor in first gear while on the center stand and still got an unusual amount of rear tire rotation with the tranny in first. So the creep is still there. I guess I'll have to tear it apart again and turn all the steel plates to the other side like you advise; sharp side away from the motor.

 

Your other recommendation about the rectangular splines, can you please go over that part one more time? Thanks Squeeze.

[Squeeze]

The steel Plates as well as the Friction Plates work themselves into the Aluminium where they are in Contact. The Steel Plates trensfer the Power to the Clutch Hub, the Friction Plate engage with the Fingers on the Outside of the Clutch Basket. They work themself into the Aluminium and when these Grooves are deep enough, the will be stuck to a point inside the Grooves they made over Time. Solution to this is to flatten the Surfaces with a File.

 

But i don't expect this to be your main Problem. Also, the Diection to sharp Edges makes a Bit of Difference but you have them in "easier Disengage" Direction. Not wrong for your Case.

 

Initially, iirc, your Problem was poor Shifting and this caused you to look at the rachteting Mechanism behind the Clutch Basket. You stated in your first Posting in this Thread, you didn't find anything wrong there.

 

So, after mounting all new Parts, the Problem with the not disengaging Clutch raised it's ugly Head. This causes my to think that this might be the basic Culprit and mounting all new Clutch Parts elevated the Problem.

 

The Main Problem, at least for now, seems to be in the Clutch Operation, Master, Slave, expanding Rubber Part of the Clutch Line or Air trapped somewhere in the Line, maybe partially clogged Clutch Line.

[fishrepair]

I suggest that you check the brass bushing in The clutch lever. Sometimes little things make a big difference. Also I hope that you put the clutch plates back in according to the right grooves. They have to go back in a certain order. While you are fooling with the clutch don't do like I did and let the little bearing at the end of the long rod fall out and then loose it. LOL, Ray

[MasterGuns]

By golly, that is a great idea. I'll put that darn thing on order tomorrow. Thanks