Brake Performance

[Guest bmiller63]

Greetings,

 

I'm looking for some feedback on what is "normal" front brake performance for a Gen1. My issue is that the handle has what I would describe as "excessive" travel and the brakes just don't seam to bit very well. The handle does not have excessive free play and I can feel the brakes start to engage as I would expect but they take a lot of handle travel and pressure to get it stopped, even at slower speeds. I have completely rebuilt the hydraulics (no pitting in the bores noted, just hard seals etc) but am still not satisfied with the performance. The system has been bleed several times manually and with an air powered vacuum bleeder so I'm confident it is not air in the system. I did not replace the pads as they appeared to be new but do not know what brand/type they are.

 

As a former Mercedes/BMW cage tech (till my hands gave out) I'm confident that the work was done correctly. I realize that the front brake only operates the one caliper but still I expected more. My last big bike was an 03 BMW GS 1150 Adv and my current other bike is an 82 SECA 400 so I realize that I'm comparing apples and oranges but it just doesn't feel right. I've never ridden any other Ventures but have several Gold Barges and they were much better then mine. I've searched around the forum but have not been able to find anything related to what I'm experiencing.

 

Is it possible that the hoses are swelling and causing the soft handle and poor performance? Can the "anti-dive" actuator be affecting it? Does anyone have experience with the steel braided lines on a Gen1? The only place I've found them they want almost $400 for a full set and I'm not ready to "invest" that much in this bike (yet). My "gut" is telling me it is the hoses and pads but want others feed back before I throw any parts at it.

 

Sorry this is so long but wanted to get as much information captured as possible. Any insight is greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance.

Bill

Colbert,WA

[Squeeze]

Hi,

 

first of all, these old rubber Hoses mostly are Junk by now. Yammi recommends to replace them every 4 Years, even if they where done one or two Times in the Past, they're too old.

 

Replace the Lines with steelbraided end expierence a brand new Feeling on the Levers and the Pedal. 400 US$ seems to be a bit pricy for me, there has to be a better Shot. Look out for HEL Lines.

 

Also, those 2-Pot Calipers are outdated. Yammi updated them to 4 Piston Calipers since the '86 Model. You cannot expect a Lot of Braking Power out of those old Calipers.

 

Next Thing might be the Pad are a bit glassy, but i'm sure, with your Background you have had them sanded a bit before reinstalling.

 

Also, the Mastercylinder might be bit weak. Alse not uncommon when seeing the Age of the Bike. But the M/C would be my last to look upon.

[Condor]

I'm running a couple of 83VR's and have to agree, the RH brake is a little 'soft', but there have been times when I'm glad it was. The last thing I want to do is lock up the front wheel. I'm also from the old school and have that built in front brake/rear brake reflex for most braking chores, and use the front only for mild speed adjustments when needed. As far as the 2-piston brake caliper being outdated, I don't think you'll be able to find something that will fit as the mounts are narrower than the 86-93's, so you can't just swap them out. You would need to change out the front forks to the newer style. I think it's too much trouble... Kind of like that "change light bulb...rewire house" mess we can get ourselve into occasionally.... I suggest replacing the pads, and make sure that both pistons are working properly. If one side is frozen...happens when the brakes aren't bled regularly.... you won't get max braking power out of it.

[Big Daddy]

The ultimate solution is to do what I did and replace the entire front end from the sliders down. I did this on my 83 with parts from an 86. I also upgraded the lines to stainless braid and while I was at it I powder coated the front fork lowers and upgraded the suspension to progressive springs and gold valve cartridge emulators. The stopping and handling on the bike is (for a lack of a better term) "reborn"! If you really love the bike to start with I recommend it!

Many folks right here on this site "held my hand" so to speak as I did the work and I know they will step up again to help you!

GO FOR IT! A new Venture experience awaits.

[Guest bmiller63]

Thanks for the replies. I had been wondering about upgrading the front end to a later style knowing I'd new from the sliders down but was hoping I could find a less intensive solution. I may go that route in the future, maybe that would be a good winter project for next year?

 

Yes I did de-glaze the pads before installation (always do when I reinstall used pads) and lubed sliders etc. Hope I don't get in trouble for using German products when I did it? (I'm a BIG fan of WURTH products)

 

At this point I think I will start with new pads. I've read the recommendations on other posts so feel pretty good about that and will start saving my lunch money for steel braided lines.

 

As an aside, do any of you know if the Progressive springs are the same for Gen1 and Gen2? If I upgrade them now and then change the sliders to Gen2's can I reuse the springs?

 

Thanks again,

 

Bill

[bongobobny]

Just have to put in my $.02 and say the early 1st gen brakes DO leave a bit to be desired. Yamaha recognized the problem and upgraded in '86 but yes, it gets pricey even with used parts, but it's the route I've chosen to take next year...

[shighley]

I suggest the above. I have done it and it does improve the brake. My anti-dive unit didn't really do anything anyway. The other thing was that the P/O had altered the lever stop screw. I wasn't getting full stroke of the lever. This won't cost you anything, except the time to rebleed the system. You can use the banjo bolt from the anti-dive unit (single hose) on the caliper. Heat the copper crush washer with a butane torch until cherry red and quench in cold water. This anneals the material and they will seal as new ones. Ride safe, Steve

[Big Daddy]

"As an aside, do any of you know if the Progressive springs are the same for Gen1 and Gen2? If I upgrade them now and then change the sliders to Gen2's can I reuse the springs?"

 

I assume you are talking early first gen to later first gen here? (83-85 vs 86-92?) If you are the springs are indeed the same as I reused the progressives when I did my slider swap. No problem.

If you do the swap and eliminate the anti dive circuit you might look into the gold valve cartridge emulators from race tech (Corona California Company) the are about $150.00 but the diference between them and the standard post type dampers is night and day!

They are adjustable for your weight and riding style. While they are not adjustable from the outside for on the fly changes, you can adjust by removing the spring and lifting out the valve body from the bottom of the fork with a mechanics pick up tool.

The company provides accurate presets if you give them honest information about your ride style and weight. I have never needed to change them (as of yet) from the preset.

Good luck!

[Condor]

"As an aside, do any of you know if the Progressive springs are the same for Gen1 and Gen2? If I upgrade them now and then change the sliders to Gen2's can I reuse the springs?"

 

I assume you are talking early first gen to later first gen here? (83-85 vs 86-92?)

 

There's always confusion when talking about 1stGens. I wish we would learn something from the boating industry and start refering to the 83-85's a Mark I's, and the 86-93's as Mark II's. I never have a problem trying to figure out which boat or year the customer is talking about.

[Guest bmiller63]

Thanks for the replies. Yes, my bad, I was assuming that Gen1 was 83-85 and Gen2 was 86-93. I frankly like the Mark I, Mark II analogy better.

 

For those that have done the front end swap, what do you do with the anti-dive? The early one is mechanical while the later is electronic (if I under stand that correctly). I suspect that changing the springs and cartridge removes the need for the anti-dive so it becomes a non-issue... is this correct?

 

Thanks again,

Bill

[Big Daddy]

Thanks for the replies. Yes, my bad, I was assuming that Gen1 was 83-85 and Gen2 was 86-93. I frankly like the Mark I, Mark II analogy better.

 

For those that have done the front end swap, what do you do with the anti-dive? The early one is mechanical while the later is electronic (if I under stand that correctly). I suspect that changing the springs and cartridge removes the need for the anti-dive so it becomes a non-issue... is this correct?

 

Thanks again,

Bill

 

Thats right Bill. My solution was to fabricate to small block off plates and remove the units alltogether. I had the plates powdercoated to match the sliders and installed them with some "form-a-gasket" smootz. If I had it to do over I think I would just tap the two holes on each leg and put a plug with an oring or something. This should only be done if you are dissassembleing the entire thing. That way you can be sure to get any chips from the tap out of there before reassembly.

[jiobst]

I too have an 83 and am not impressed with the brake performance. While I don’t have the mushy feel in the hand grip I don’t have much confidence in an emergency stop when I have a close encounter of the deer kind which seems to happen more than once on every ride in Colorado. Are bikes deer magnets or what? My question goes to unlinking the braking system and return to a separate front and rear brake application. I get that this system is “easier” but after 40,000 + miles of riding I don’t want to relearn how to ride. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[CrazyHorse]

I too have an 83 and am not impressed with the brake performance.

 

I'm not sure what your question is?

[sarges46]

De-linking has been done before. But the question would be why? It is a good system as it makes is a little more difficult to lock up the rear in a panic stop.

[jiobst]

Another post on this site referred to training to “Ride like a Pro” where the slow speed maneuvering technique was to drag the rear brake while using the friction zone of the clutch and throttle in combination. They go on to say to never use the front brake in these maneuvers. With a linked system that is not possible. Additionally, the varied road conditions (wet, dry, pot holes) and loads (One up, passenger, loaded luggage) will all have an effect on the front rear brake balance which is easily managed with separate front and rear controls but are impossible to control with a linked system. I don’t want to start a debate on the merits of the system designed by the Yamaha engineers, I just want to know how to change to a conventional brake system on an 83 Venture.

[Condor]

Another post on this site referred to training to “Ride like a Pro” where the slow speed maneuvering technique was to drag the rear brake while using the friction zone of the clutch and throttle in combination. They go on to say to never use the front brake in these maneuvers. With a linked system that is not possible. Additionally, the varied road conditions (wet, dry, pot holes) and loads (One up, passenger, loaded luggage) will all have an effect on the front rear brake balance which is easily managed with separate front and rear controls but are impossible to control with a linked system. I don’t want to start a debate on the merits of the system designed by the Yamaha engineers, I just want to know how to change to a conventional brake system on an 83 Venture.

 

If you're dead set on de-linking the front and rear brakes, go for it. I'd just plug the left front caliper and not use it at all. I want to preface this by saying I've never done it, but to me using two caliper/rotors on the front wheel is asking for a lock up big time, beside being super touchy. That's an awful lot of braking applied to one wheel when the contact patch is so small anyway, but then again I've never done it. Maybe someone on the board has, and can give a better idea of the braking performance. I cut my teeth on seperate front/back brake systems and still have that built in reflex, but personally don't notice a big difference in regular riding brake situations with them linked.....

[CrazyHorse]

If you're dead set on de-linking the front and rear brakes, go for it. I'd just plug the left front caliper and not use it at all. I want to preface this by saying I've never done it, but to me using two caliper/rotors on the front wheel is asking for a lock up big time, beside being super touchy. That's an awful lot of braking applied to one wheel when the contact patch is so small anyway, but then again I've never done it. Maybe someone on the board has, and can give a better idea of the braking performance. I cut my teeth on seperate front/back brake systems and still have that built in reflex, but personally don't notice a big difference in regular riding brake situations with them linked.....

 

I have done de-linking. I have also added the R1/R6 front calipers and used the regular R6 pads not the HH models. I kept the standard proportioning valve in its place and hooked the back brake to its standard spot on the proportioning valve. I kept the proportioning valve because I did not want to lock up the rear brake. I disconnected the front left disk brake line from the proportioning valve and plugged it with a I believe a 10mm x 1.25 bolt cut down and used a regular copper brake washer. I have a 1990 so I had a metering valve and bleeder at the top of the frame (yours will not) I took all those out and the brake line to the left front caliper. I then ran a double banjo bolt off of the standard front master cylinder with new stainless steel lines to thier respective front calipers.

 

Some thoughts on its operation. I can not get the rear brake to lock up with this set up even if I raise the height of the brake pedal. I know I have more rear braking capacity before I would ever lock up, which I would like to be able to use. Braking capacity isnt any better then the standard system but I prefer delinked because I have more fine control over the bike. I usually can tell if a bike has linked brakes especially at slow speeds. Now I'm going to try the HH pads in front and see what happens. I may also move the rear line to the front position on the proportiong valve (I dont know what the split is in terms of 40 % to rear 60% front anyone know?) and try that to see if I can get more braking. I have pictures if you want. I'd be interested in knowing about Freebird's proportioning valve that is adjustable I guess. I'd like to be able to fine tune the rear brake more because I know I have more braking force there. I'm just not able to use it though.

[Guest bmiller63]

I'd be interested in pictures! Are the R1/R6 calipers direct bolt on or did you have to modify/replace anything else?

[Squeeze]

I have done de-linking. I have also added the R1/R6 front calipers and used the regular R6 pads not the HH models. I kept the standard proportioning valve in its place and hooked the back brake to its standard spot on the proportioning valve. I kept the proportioning valve because I did not want to lock up the rear brake. I disconnected the front left disk brake line from the proportioning valve and plugged it with a I believe a 10mm x 1.25 bolt cut down and used a regular copper brake washer. I have a 1990 so I had a metering valve and bleeder at the top of the frame (yours will not) I took all those out and the brake line to the left front caliper. I then ran a double banjo bolt off of the standard front master cylinder with new stainless steel lines to thier respective front calipers.

 

Some thoughts on its operation. I can not get the rear brake to lock up with this set up even if I raise the height of the brake pedal. I know I have more rear braking capacity before I would ever lock up, which I would like to be able to use. Braking capacity isnt any better then the standard system but I prefer delinked because I have more fine control over the bike. I usually can tell if a bike has linked brakes especially at slow speeds. Now I'm going to try the HH pads in front and see what happens. I may also move the rear line to the front position on the proportiong valve (I dont know what the split is in terms of 40 % to rear 60% front anyone know?) and try that to see if I can get more braking. I have pictures if you want. I'd be interested in knowing about Freebird's proportioning valve that is adjustable I guess. I'd like to be able to fine tune the rear brake more because I know I have more braking force there. I'm just not able to use it though.

 

Thats a fine Desciption, i've done the same.

 

The Mastercylinder is pefect for feeding both R1 Calipers on front. I can't say anything about the rear, because my rear M/C is weak and i didn't get into it yet. I've replaced the rear Caliper laos with a R1 Type.

 

I don't like a linked System, because it's just not my riding Style. I ride different Bikes, all are not linked, and just want to have same Procedures on all Bikes. Even if the rear Brake on the Venture is powerful, it isn't on the others.

[CrazyHorse]

I'd be interested in pictures! Are the R1/R6 calipers direct bolt on or did you have to modify/replace anything else?

 

They are direct for 1986+. Your 1984 has a different set up. You would need to mount a 1986+ lower fork assembly to do it.

[Guest Popeye]

Since I began riding, in the '60s when 'kick starts' were the norm, I have never used the rear brake pedal.

Rear pedal always seemed, to me, to be for emergencies only.

 

Brakes were not linked then, & I have never changed rear brake pads/shoes...probably the main reason I avoided the rear brake.

I've only used my rear pedal for test purposes [~once a month] on my current '86.

 

For me, it is unfortunate to have linked brakes, since 'front only' has always worked so well for me & NEVER a problem.

One's scoot should be set for their personal riding style/preference & habits. Otherwise, bad things can happen.

 

The ability to 'easily' lock the brakes[wheel(s)] on on a 2 wheeler does not seem logical, to me.

Even cages, that require no balance, have ABS.

[Guest bmiller63]

Assuming I do the front end swap will I need an 86+ front wheel and rotors? I know the rotors are different but unsure if the wheels/rotor combination is required or just the rotors?

 

I REALLY like the idea of R1/R6 calipers and a delinked system. I too ride different bikes and would not want them configured differently.

 

Thanks again for the assistance and patience.

 

Bill

[CrazyHorse]

I dont know if you need 86+ wheel or not thats a good question I'm sure someone here would know. I'm still experimenting with my setup to get the most out of the braking system. I have even looked into using an ABS system off of an old FJ1200, but this would take alot of work. I think ABS is a more worth while system then linked brakes but I must admit it much easier and cheaper to link the brakes if thats what you like. Riding a bike with ABS is really great any new bike I get will have ABS. I think its a great safety feature your not gonna lock up either brake.

[Squeeze]

I dont know if you need 86+ wheel or not thats a good question I'm sure someone here would know. I'm still experimenting with my setup to get the most out of the braking system. I have even looked into using an ABS system off of an old FJ1200, but this would take alot of work. I think ABS is a more worth while system then linked brakes but I must admit it much easier and cheaper to link the brakes if thats what you like. Riding a bike with ABS is really great any new bike I get will have ABS. I think its a great safety feature your not gonna lock up either brake.

 

Pleeeeeeeeeeease, don't do that. The ABS Systems from Yamaha are not know for a really good Performance, not worth any Effort in this Matters. The System is Way toooooo slow to have a real good Brake Distance. A expierenced Rider will ever outbrake the FJ1200 and the FJR1300 Systems. This Issure was tested and discussed in a major M/C Magazine here. I'm not sure about the ABS of the newer FJR ('06/'07) but the '05 Model was better than the FJ1200, but sure not even close to BMW ABS. Imho, I really do not see any Asset in a ABS System in M/C, at least for me. But as long as there are Believers and Payers, there will be an Offer .... If you you're looking for more Safety, learn and practice Countersteering, if so a locking Front Wheel will not scare you anymore. Rear Wheel locking is another Story, but with delinked Brakes, you use the rear only as an Emergency Brake, and this will prevent the rear from Locking on the frist hard Hit.

 

Assuming I do the front end swap will I need an 86+ front wheel and rotors? I know the rotors are different but unsure if the wheels/rotor combination is required or just the rotors?

..

 

I don't think so. You will only need the Lower Forkboots and rewireing the Antidive. This is not hard to do. Just a Relay, this is operated by the Brakelights and two Wires to the Coils on the left and right Forkboots.

Hopefully, someone else will chime in and confirm this. I think the Antidive is really an Asset, because it prevents the whole Bike Geometry from shifting out of an controlable Window under hard braking. If you allow the Fork to Dive more than it should, you will have more Weight on the Front during braking, the rear has less Weight and could get more unstable easier. The Trail on the front would change to a Point where nobody want's it. This could cause the Front starting wobble or maybe a Tankslapper. Stiffer Springs would of course help in that Matters, but they would also make the Ride a bit more harsh than it could be.

[CrazyHorse]

Pleeeeeeeeeeease, don't do that. The ABS Systems from Yamaha are not know for a really good Performance, not worth any Effort in this Matters. The System is Way toooooo slow to have a real good Brake Distance. A expierenced Rider will ever outbrake the FJ1200 and the FJR1300 Systems. This Issure was tested and discussed in a major M/C Magazine here. I'm not sure about the ABS of the newer FJR ('06/'07) but the '05 Model was better than the FJ1200, but sure not even close to BMW ABS. Imho, I really do not see any Asset in a ABS System in M/C, at least for me. But as long as there are Believers and Payers, there will be an Offer .... If you you're looking for more Safety, learn and practice Countersteering, if so a locking Front Wheel will not scare you anymore. Rear Wheel locking is another Story, but with delinked Brakes, you use the rear only as an Emergency Brake, and this will prevent the rear from Locking on the frist hard Hit.

.

 

Thanks for the info on the FJ1200 systems. Locking the rear doesn't scare me get off it fast enough and your fine. Front lock is fine as long as it straight. Wet pavement I do like the ABS as a back up sometimes your down before you know it in the wet stuff. Dry yes you can stop in a shorter distance then ABS. Yes BMW has a nice setup I think thier 4th Generation ABS. Correct me if I'm wrong I believe they also link front to back instead of rear to front which is what I would prefer if I had to have linked brakes.