Aftermarket TCI available!

[The Crimson Knight]

I don't want to get this thread off topic. If anyone has any part requests please PM me.

[dingy]

I had the bike dynoed today with the ignitech unit that I got from Crimson Knight, horsepower only unfortunately. Only cost $20 though.

 

Did not have near the horsepower I was expecting from it. 96.12 with the stock TCI and 95.80 with the ignitech unit.

 

But the results show that the stock TCI is very close in performance to the ignitech unit.

 

Ignitech was run with a 2D curve. I do not have a boost sensor or TPS wired in yet.

 

The two curves are shown on the first picture. The blue curve is the stock TCI, red curve is the ignitech unit.

 

For some reason the stock TCI broke up a little at higher RPM's, something I have not noticed on the road. I may have not had the plugs in tight when I swapped modules. Stock TCI was 84-89 version.

 

HP readings were taken in 4th gear.

 

Very hot & humid day, which didn't help at all.

 

Other four shots are screen shots of parameter settings in ignitech software.

 

Gary

 

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af193/gdingy101/1300horsepower_ignitechstockTCI-s.jpg

 

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af193/gdingy101/screen1.jpg

 

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af193/gdingy101/screen2.jpg

 

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af193/gdingy101/screen3.jpg

 

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af193/gdingy101/screen3a.jpg

[tvking63]

 

The blue curve is the stock TCI, red curve is the ignitech unit.

 

 

 

You didn't mention it but I assume you know that IgniTech box appears to be programmed with my non-MAP curve and not the one that came from IgniTech. It would be interesting to see the power output of the original IgniTech curve. My "Seat-of-the-pants" dyno says it would be way down on power.

 

 

 

But the results show that the stock TCI is very close in performance to the ignitech unit.

 

 

That's good to see, since I was programming by trial and error. But remember that the dyno is only measuring power at WOT. (unless it's a brake dyno, but it doesn't' appear to be) At part throttle, w/o a MAP sensor, I'm almost positive the IgniTech box would WOULD NOT keep up with the stock TCI.

Edited July 18, 2010 by tvking63
clearification

[dingy]

You didn't mention it but I assume you know that IgniTech box appears to be programmed with my non-MAP curve and not the one that came from IgniTech. It would be interesting to see the power output of the original IgniTech curve. My "Seat-of-the-pants" dyno says it would be way down on power.

 

 

I did download your 'Venture 9' curve. Just looked at it again.

 

But the curve that is running in my bike is really not even close to that one.

 

If anything, it is closer to one Squeeze sent me.

 

I will email it to you if you want to look at it.

 

The first two screens match your, but I am not sure about a couple of settings there. When I gently roll the throttle up, all four cylinders do not advance at same point. Two of them lag a degree by some RPM's. I think this is due to the settings on the 'Bike' page,'Channel 1 - Channel 4'

 

Gary

[tvking63]

I did download your 'Venture 9' curve. Just looked at it again.

 

But the curve that is running in my bike is really not even close to that one.

 

If anything, it is closer to one Squeeze sent me.

 

 

 

Your right. Looking closer, it doesn't match any of my map variants or Squeeze's. I'm not sure what it is or where it came from. Last I talked to Crimson Knight, he had loaded my map and so I thought that what was in his box.

 

 

 

The first two screens match your, but I am not sure about a couple of settings there. When I gently roll the throttle up, all four cylinders do not advance at same point. Two of them lag a degree by some RPM's. I think this is due to the settings on the 'Bike' page,'Channel 1 - Channel 4'

 

 

I've noticed this too. It doesn't see to affect the way the bike runs though. I'm not sure what some of those setting are for either, but I haven't changed any of them from what IgniTech supplied and yours look to be the same as mine.

[dingy]

Your right. Looking closer, it doesn't match any of my map variants or Squeeze's. I'm not sure what it is or where it came from. Last I talked to Crimson Knight, he had loaded my map and so I thought that what was in his box.

 

 

I made this map trying to follow the Vmax curve.

 

I have the initial timing set at 5@ and advancing to 43@. Tried to follow RPM curve in Vmax manual.

 

I have a Throttle Position Sensor that I was going to adapt to this unit, but may not.

 

I did some testing with the stock pressure boost on the Venture. It is outputting 12v when disconnected from the wiring harness. I did not check output when hooked up. I suspect it will be in the 2-4vdc range when attached to a load. I am uncomfortable about hooking stock boost unit to the Ingitech module due to this higher unloaded voltage reading.

 

I did not get any extra wiring harness connectors for the ingitech module like you did. Crimson Knight said he did not receive any. I have been unable to locate any connectors that size around here. Ingitech has them for sale on their site, so I will get some from them. I need the extra connectors in order to connect a TPS or a auto type BAR sensor. Until I get some, I will be using the 2d curve.

 

Gary

Edited July 18, 2010 by dingy

[tvking63]

I made this map trying to follow the Vmax curve.

 

Ah, got it. Looks like it worked pretty well. I didn't go that route because like I mentioned in post #100, I thought that the different cam, carbs, gearing ect. might not lend itself to using VMax numbers.

 

I did some testing with the stock pressure boost on the Venture. It is outputting 12v when disconnected from the wiring harness. I did not check output when hooked up. I suspect it will be in the 2-4vdc range when attached to a load. I am uncomfortable about hooking stock boost unit to the Ingitech module due to this higher unloaded voltage reading.

 

I've been looking into this too and am aware of the 12v issue. The IgniTech box would see 12v from the sensor if ground would go belly up, and the IgniTech box is designed to get a max reading of 5v from the sensor. So I contacted IgniTech and they assured me that 12v on pin #6 wouldn't damage the box, so I started some testing.

 

I've been riding around with a DVOM connected to the stock vacuum sensor recording voltages. The way I see it there are 2 problems. First, the voltage swing is pretty small. 1.6v at idle (0% load) and 2.2v key on engine not running (atmospheric pressure or 100% load). That's only a .6v change so small changes in voltage will have to take bigger swings at timing changes. And cruising voltage runs around 2.0v, so you'd have to go from part throttle cruise advance, back to the base map in a .2v change. Second, the IgniTech software will only allow me to reduce the 100% load voltage to 2.5v. This is because, as I've mentioned, the box is looking for TPS voltage which would never be that low at WOT. This could probably be worked around by tweaking the advance numbers though.

 

I'll probably make up a map and give it a try, but on the surface, it doesn't seem like the answer.

 

The only reason I'm looking at this is because it would make it easier for the less technically inclined to install. I'm very happy with the way it runs with the GM MAP sensor.

 

In the next couple days I'll try to update the first thread with MAP sensor details and corresponding map.

[dingy]

The only reason I'm looking at this is because it would make it easier for the less technically inclined to install. I'm very happy with the way it runs with the GM MAP sensor.

 

 

I saw the same voltage swing as you did with the stock sensor, only about 1/2 volt.

 

How much of a voltage swing are you getting with the GM map sensor?

 

The Map unit would be just as good to use, only minor advantage to stock sensor is it has a mount already on bike.

 

What Map sensor are you using? P/N ? Car application info?

 

The TPS is what ingitech shows in their info, but a TPS does not take into account the loading on the engine like the Map sensor would.

 

Gary

[tvking63]

How much of a voltage swing are you getting with the GM map sensor?

 

Almost 2v.

 

 

The Map unit would be just as good to use, only minor advantage to stock sensor is it has a mount already on bike.

 

Right, you wouldn't have to source a sensor, connector ect.

 

What Map sensor are you using? P/N ? Car application info?

 

Any 1 Bar GM MAP sensor will do. This is pretty much any non-turbocharged GM car.

I will update the first thread with the MAP info so look for it there.

 

For those unfamiliar, Bar is a measure of pressure, similar to PSI. 1 Bar is approximately 1 Atmosphere or 14.5 PSI.

 

The TPS is what ingitech shows in their info, but a TPS does not take into account the loading on the engine like the Map sensor would.

 

Yes. That's why I wanted to use a MAP sensor. And I didn't have to fab a way to mount a TPS on the throttle linkage somehow. There are several post with info about the differences, complications and advantages of using a MAP sensor.

[tvking63]

Updated the first post with more current info and added MAP sensor info. It's not quite done but it's all I had time for at the moment.

[timgray]

http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/products_id/457

 

for the GM MAP sensor connector... It allows you to make the wires look better without splices.

 

http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/products_id/440

 

This is the MAP sensor to use... Any 1 BAR map sensor is fine.. If the car does not have a Turbo or Supercharger on it, It's a 1 BAR sensor.. $4.00 from most junkyards and they rarely go bad.

 

MAP Sensor Pinout...

They all share a common pin-out, although the connector keying may be different:

Pin A -- Ground

Pin B -- Sensor output

Pin C -- +5 volts

 

5 Volts is supplied from the Ingitech box.

 

 

 

Note: with 1 month old gas I was experiencing Pinging at low RPM take off from a stop. No audible pinging at any other range or load, only at stoplight low throttle takeoff. Putting in 1 gallon of premium to a mostly full tank made the pinging go away.

Edited July 22, 2010 by timgray

[tvking63]

Thanks for the links. Do you mind if I add them to the first post?

 

 

Note: with 1 month old gas I was experiencing Pinging at low RPM take off from a stop. No audible pinging at any other range or load, only at stoplight low throttle takeoff. Putting in 1 gallon of premium to a mostly full tank made the pinging go away.

 

I don't remember which map I sent you last. What is the name of the MAP you're running? The only ping I ever get is if I get lazy and really lug it from a stop. I might get a 1/2 second or so. If I use the proper amount of throttle/clutch it's not a problem.

[timgray]

Please do! anything to make this easier for people the better. I'm also trying to find a source for the pins for those that did not get a set of extra pins with their ingitech tci.

 

I need to take a look at my garage computer to see what I loaded. I'll let you know this evening.

Edited July 29, 2010 by timgray

[dingy]

I emailed Ignitech for pricing and shipping on a set of pins for the unit.

 

I haven't heard back from them yet.

 

Tvking63 lent me 3 so I could attach a map sensor.

 

Gary

[JoeKanuck]

So what are the problems which plague the OEM TCI? What goes wrong with them and is it possible to prevent it? Or repair it?

[timgray]

So what are the problems which plague the OEM TCI? What goes wrong with them and is it possible to prevent it? Or repair it?

 

From the ones I have been inside, the diodes on the board simply turn to powder with age. when they do a good bump will dislodge the center of the diode causing it to fail. 4 of these diodes are for dealing with the voltage spike that happens when a coil fires they protect the transistors that trigger the coils to fire. when they fail they allow the full spike that can be in the 1000 volt range or more to hit the transistor. This is typically far higher than the reverse voltage rating of the transistor and will travel through the transistor to the circuitry behind it. blowing parts up. a single spike wont do much damage, but when you lose the diode on the highway, in 3 seconds you just gave the TCI 12,000 overvoltage spikes ensuring destruction of the TCI components.

 

If you have a good TCI, you need to carefully take it apart, dry it out, clean it up and replace the diodes that will fail with correct ones that will last another 20 years. It takes good soldering skills and equipment. the 20+ year old pheonlic board will lift the copper traces in a heartbeat when you heat the board to upgrade the diodes. It's pretty much a difficult job.

 

Many fail from water damage, the rest fail from the faulty diodes.

[JoeKanuck]

Interesting...I have an electronics tech I can count on for soldering and I'm not too shabby at it myself.

 

Do you have a diagram of which diodes are the issue?

 

By the way, what years of VR's TCI's will fit on what? I have an '86...what replacement TCI's can I use?

 

thanks

[dingy]

Here is some info on what I have done so far with the module. I had a phone conversation with TVKing63 and some PM's back and for with Squeeze, both have helped me get to this point.

 

One of the problems that I was having is the output voltage of the GM map sensor that I am using is just a little over 3.0vdc at idle. The Ingitech software has a high end hard coded threshold of 2.5 volts at idle. With some trial and error, I found that if a 250K ohm resistor is put in series between the output of the map sensor and the input of the Ignitech unit, the idle voltage will be approximately 2.0vdc. By doing this the full range on the Ingitech mapping curve can be utilized. Prior to putting the resistor in, I was unable to use anything below about 30% vacuum advance. Now I am able to start at the 0% bracket.

 

The next issue I was seeing, and it may not be a major one, was the pulsing of the vacuum curve at idle. TVKing63 indicated he was seeing the same thing but he thought it smoothed out alright above idle. The solution that I came up with incorporates two ideas from previous posts in this thread, with a third added. Somewhere, and I can't find it, someone had mentioned tying all 4 vacuum ports together to smooth the curve. This is the first thing I did. Second was to get the inline restrictor that TimGray had used. The third thing was to add a small canister to the vacuum line going to the map sensor. I used a piece of 2" PVC, just long enough to be glued in place between two PVC caps. In one of the caps, I epoxied in two 3/16" plastic air nipples.

 

There is an upside and a downside to the canister idea. The upside is that it will smooth out the pulsing. The downside is that it will induce a lag into the throttle response curve. The reason that the canister so short is to reduce this throttle lag. A smaller diameter canister may still work, but this was the path I was on.

 

Squeeze suggested I use an RC timing circuit, which consists of a resistor and capacitor in parallel, to smooth out the pulsing. This would be a more compact solution, but for now I am satisfied with the canister.

 

There are two videos that I put on You tube next that show the difference without & with this canister.

 

First one is without the canister, notice the blue bar, which displays the TPS (Map sensor) voltage. It is varying quite a bit. Both of the video's were taken with the TPS threshold set lower than optimal, so the bouncing would be evident.

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqhoGqGE4_A]YouTube- ‪TP wo can‬‎[/ame]

 

Second one is with the canister inserted in the line. Now the TPS voltage is much more constant.

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghQNJn23sAo]YouTube- ‪TP w can‬‎[/ame]

 

Next video shows screen views with the engine being reved to display TPS response. I believe I will lower the upper threshold of the TPS voltage from what is shown in this clip.

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3K3CKEMxvA]YouTube- ‪Map w can ‬‎[/ame]

 

Picture next is of the canister.

 

[ATTACH]48709[/ATTACH]

 

Next is one of the fitting I found at O'Rielys that I tied the four vacuum ports together with. Part number is Dorman 47361

 

[ATTACH]48710[/ATTACH]

 

Next is one of four vacuum ports tied together.

 

[ATTACH]48711[/ATTACH]

 

Next is of all three components to Ingitech system I am using.

 

[ATTACH]48716[/ATTACH]

Lastly is the software curve I am using. I downloaded and tried TVKing63 latest map 'Venture 11e 2500-4500TPSV.ign' This one seemed to be lacking some throttle response. From what I have researched, it seems that full vacuum advance is not useful at WOT. This is based on article referenced next. This is of course just one opinion on the matter.

 

http://www.thesavoy.de/html/vacuum_advance.html

 

Squeeze sent me what he thought would be a good starting point for a map. I tried it as he suggested, but there was a distinct hesitation when going from a steady 4500-5500 RPM to WOT. I modified his curve by pushing the advance out farther and this cleared up the hesitation.

 

Below is a screen shot of TVKing63 3D curve and Map.

 

[ATTACH]48712[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]48713[/ATTACH]

 

Below is shot of what I am trying for now.

 

[ATTACH]48714[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]48715[/ATTACH]

 

Which style of mapping is better can be best measured by a dyno, which I hope to do this fall. The previous one I did was a low cost one at a shootout. I did not get torque values or A/F readings which will be very useful to guide me in what to do to get some decent HP out of this bike.

 

Gary

Edited August 9, 2010 by dingy
grammer correction

[dingy]

Interesting...I have an electronics tech I can count on for soldering and I'm not too shabby at it myself.

 

Do you have a diagram of which diodes are the issue?

 

By the way, what years of VR's TCI's will fit on what? I have an '86...what replacement TCI's can I use?

 

thanks

 

You can use a TCI from 84 through 89.

 

The attached picture shows a red arrow pointing to one of 8 diodes. They are all the same and lie in approximately a line straight up.

 

A 1N4001 or higher diode can be used.

 

Gary

[JoeKanuck]

Those are odd looking diodes...at least to me. Just to be clear, I take it the arrow is pointing to the oddly bulbous green/tan thing.

 

EDIT...Thanks Dingy for steering me to that other thread. Those picks are just what I was looking for. The next step is to look at my TCI and compare.

 

Another edit...the cannister idea is a good one. On a car, the intake manifold acts like a vacuum plenum for all of the cylinders. Just a single intake runner on the Venture doesn't have enough volume and will produce a very erratic vacuum curve. The cannister, (plenum), should smooth out the pulses very well, I reckon...especially with all 4 cylinders tied to it.

Edited August 8, 2010 by JoeKanuck

[JoeKanuck]

I found the tc i under the battery box. Is it possible to remove without taking off the fairings?

[Squeeze]

Thank you Gary, outstanding and well documented Job, as always !! :thumbsup2::thumbsup2:

[dingy]

Thank you Gary, outstanding and well documented Job, as always !! :thumbsup2::thumbsup2:

 

 

Appreciate it Squueze, but this subject is certainly going to be efforts from multiple people.

 

Fairly complex to get right.

 

Especially since some of us want different end results.

 

I for one want power, others will look more towards fuel economy.

 

Gary

[Squeeze]

Gary, of Course i know there are several People working on the optimal Solution, but you are the one with the best written Documentation, undisputed in my Opinion. I really appreciate what your doing, as well as the Work TimGray and TvKing63 did and still do. I'm not trying to take anything away from them, but a good Documentation is a Lot of "extra" Work and i think i know what i'm talking about.

 

I can follow this technical Discussion easily, but there a Lots of Members here which don't have my Background and I'm sure they are happy about what's going on here, because, sooner or later, working TCI's will be like rare Earth and this Ignitech is/will be a rather cheap and fine working Solution.

 

 

On a Sidenote, seeking for Power and better Fuel Economy aren't necessarily two Side of the same Medal.

 

In the End, if you run a Engine on the best Power possible at given Circumstances, you need only so much Throttle Opening to maintain your Cruising Speed. If the same Engine isn't running well tuned, you'll always open up the Throttle more than what would be needed to maintain the same Speed, thus sucking more Fuel by that and make fuel Consumption worse. Of Course, if you often look into upper End of the RpM-Range, it will cost you extra Fuel, because raw Power allways means running rich, but that Range is beyond what the average Member (if there is such a Thing as an average Meber at all) is trying to achieve anyway.

[timgray]

I was thinking of the vac-can as a way to smooth things out, I just wish there was a small one in the auto parts stores that would be a easy drop in.. I was actually trying to find a smaller restrictor first. I want a easier Off the shelf solution to make it easy for someone to buy and do themselves. I think it can be done off of only 1 port, Yamaha did it this way, we should be able to as well.

 

I really do wish we could get a standard setup for the VAC sensor hookup and then get a weekend of dyno time to tune it all in. that way we can create a easy turnkey solution for anyone.

 

Actually I have an idea there. A nylon fuel filter in line after the restrictor would work for smoothing out the pulses. I was thinking vac line filter, but the fuel filter would have a lot more volume inside. Time to stop by NAPA on my way home to see what they have in stock that would be a easy fit.

Edited August 11, 2010 by timgray