Aftermarket TCI available!

[Squeeze]

I looked but i couldn't find it..

 

Which Year is the VR Map from ??

[tvking63]

The top right of the image shows it's for a XVZ12DL. L = 1984

I also have the map for the K, or 1983 and it's the same.

 

And since the 84-89 all use the same TCI box part # we can assume that 83-89 VR's all use the same advance curve.

[Squeeze]

The top right of the image shows it's for a XVZ12DL. L = 1984

I also have the map for the K, or 1983 and it's the same.

 

And since the 84-89 all use the same TCI box part # we can assume that 83-89 VR's all use the same advance curve.

 

 

Definately not right for the '83. The '83 took the Vacuum from a Port above the Throttle Plates, whereas the later Years have the Ports in the #2 Intake Manifold. That's why i asked about the Year of said Curve. If the wrongly transferred the '83 Curve into the '84 Manual, this would explain the upside down Vacuum Values. Sure wouldn't be the first Time the screwed up in the Manuals.

 

I still say, you can't be that wrong with the early Vmax Curve. I acknowledge the Differences and i'm basically with you, but programing the Curve is such an easy Task, why not give it a try ? Probably 43° is too much, I'd go down to 40° there, but other than this I'd try it for sure. You should be aware that the Sensors have a their Differences too, even while these are all within Specs. Meaning, on a stock System, changing the Sensor alone could give you 3° or 5 ° different Timing somewhere along the Curve without you noticing it or any negative Outcome besides academic Values on a Dyno.

[jasonm.]

Why don't you just go with the Vmax Data. It's the same Motor, ok, different Cams, but you sure won't hurt anything when going where the Power is.

I am just speaking off idle and low speed. The fuels out here in the states have gone to crap. And the 5 degree setting from stock protects. Also efficient engines don't need a high advance at idle. Advance is to give time for fuel to burn . Yamaha made a big deal about how good their design is/was.

[tvking63]

Definately not right for the '83.

 

I am aware of the differences in the 83 model. As a 25 year ASE master tech, I too had an incorrect understanding of ported vacuum until just recently. In fact, I explained it wrong to timgray last fall when all this started. I found that a lot of people are confused.

 

Here is an article that contains good info on ported vacuum. Read the second to the last paragraph and view the data logger chart.

 

If the wrongly transferred the '83 Curve into the '84 Manual, this would explain the upside down Vacuum Values.

 

Now if we agree that ported and manifold vacuum are the same except at idle, then there is no reason the 83 and 84-89 advance curves couldn't/wouldn't be the same.

 

I'd bet that is the reason for the TCI part # change. I'd guess the 84-89 TCI just ignores the Boost senor at idle so ported vacuum isn't needed. I can quasi-confirm this because when I plug an 83 TCI into my 84 it raises the idle (cause by more advance).

 

This also means that the vacuum numbers on the curves have to be reversed. Advance cannot be removed with increased vacuum.

 

Sure wouldn't be the first Time the screwed up in the Manuals.

 

I noticed on the V-Max map, 'Ignition Timing' and 'Advanced Timing' above the graph are show as inches (").

 

 

I still say, you can't be that wrong with the early Vmax Curve. I acknowledge the Differences and i'm basically with you, but programing the Curve is such an easy Task, why not give it a try ? Probably 43° is too much, I'd go down to 40° there, but other than this I'd try it for sure.

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by using the V-Max curve. You can download the software at IgniTech's site and have at it if you like. Send me the file when your done.

[Squeeze]

.... You can download the software at IgniTech's site and have at it if you like. Send me the file when your done.

 

Sure, i'll do that, after i loaded the Power Commander Maps(gear selective) you created to fit my '09 Max. The Software is on their Websiste. Go ahead, i'm looking forward to your Input.

 

:D

 

 

Look, i'm certainly not trying to start a Fight here. Just trying to add my Thoughts and trying to be helpful and giving Input from a different Perspective.

 

In Fact i appreciate your Efforts and raise my Hat to what you achieved so far, seeing the minimum Data we have available and the Doubts about the Reliabilty coming from Yamaha Manuals which we all have also to acknowledge.

[tvking63]

Look, i'm certainly not trying to start a Fight here. Just trying to add my Thoughts and trying to be helpful and giving Input from a different Perspective.

 

 

I'm not trying to pick a fight either, just poking at you a bit. http://www.cbr1100xx.org/forums/style_emoticons/22306set/poke.gif

 

I apologize if that was my tone. It wasn't meant to be.

 

So we're all good.?

[Squeeze]

Sure, we're good, didn't even felt poked at all :happy34:

 

I just reread the whole Thread, but i didn't came clear on that, I think you're not sporting a MAP or TPS Sensor at the Moment, just relying on the Ignitech Base Advance Map, controlled by Engine RpM ?

[Squeeze]

Here's the Map i created ...

[tvking63]

 

I just reread the whole Thread, but i didn't came clear on that, I think you're not sporting a MAP or TPS Sensor at the Moment, just relying on the Ignitech Base Advance Map, controlled by Engine RpM ?

 

Well, yes and no. It's not very clear, but somewhere around post #100 some of the info is about attempting to run a MAP sensor using the IgniTech TPS input. All vacuum related info is looking toward using a MAP sensor.

 

 

At the moment I am running a MAP sensor. I attempted to replicate the stock VR base map at 100 % load in the software and the max advance map at zero % load. (assuming the vac #'s are reversed) Then just spread the difference out between the two.

 

 

 

 

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4014/4532717700_64a6ca2f18_o.jpg

 

I've been riding around with a digital VOM tapped into the MAP signal at the IgniTech box to be as accurate as possible.. I even checked the VOM against the TPS voltage #'s in the software and they are within a few hundredths. So the numbers I'm seeing are almost exactly same #'s the box is seeing.

 

From this info I was able to set the 0% and 100% voltages for the "TPS" in the software.

 

As I said in post #100, this seems to be the answer to waking up the part throttle response that was a little lax w/o a MAP/Boost sensor input. Hopefully mileage will get a boost too. I need more saddle time to ride with and without the MAP to verify this.

 

There is a small issue with idle hunting because the box is looking for a static TPS voltage at idle and I have a MAP voltage that varies somewhat. The box thinks this is throttle movement and varies the timing causing the idle speed to be a little irregular. I think I have that fix but need some better weather to see for sure.

Edited July 10, 2011 by tvking63
spelling

[Squeeze]

You should change the Value in Column one(where you start at 900 now) up to 1150 or, meaning the Box will rely only at Base Advance(5 ° at the Moment) until the RpM raises above tht the first Column Value. Would rule theTPS/MAP Problem out of the Idle RpM.

 

Then I'd not start with a jump between 5° and 15°, I'd go from 8°@1150 to 10°@ 1250 then 15°@1350. Big steps (like 10° at 100 RpM Difference) will cause somewhat erratic Idle.

[tvking63]

You should change the Value in Column one(where you start at 900 now) up to 1150 or, meaning the Box will rely only at Base Advance(5 ° at the Moment) until the RpM raises above tht the first Column Value. Would rule theTPS/MAP Problem out of the Idle RpM.

 

Then I'd not start with a jump between 5° and 15°, I'd go from 8°@1150 to 10°@ 1250 then 15°@1350. Big steps (like 10° at 100 RpM Difference) will cause somewhat erratic Idle.

 

That's similar to what I did. Your not as nutty as you sound on the internet.

 

This was my attempt to duplicate the stock base and advanced maps as closely as possible. I figured this would be a good starting point.

 

The timing doesn't jump to the next value when that RPM is reached, it ramps up to meet that value as RPM is increased. So at 0% load, anything over 900rpm and timing starts climbing toward 26°. This would increase RPM and sometimes kick it to the next RPM level. Then with the MAP voltage varing slightly, the software would change to the 5% or 20% load map changing the timing again.

 

Moving the base RPM from 900 to 1000 and changing the timing in that column all to 7° seems to have fixed it. I'm not sure what the different timing numbers at 900 RPM were all about anyway but that's the way the stock curve is setup.

Edited April 26, 2010 by tvking63
spelling

[Squeeze]

You're wrong ...

 

I'm a complete Nutcase. On the Internet and even more in Person. :whistling:

 

 

 

:255:

[timgray]

 

There is a small issue with idle hunting because the box is looking for a static TPS voltage at idle and I have a MAP voltage that varies somewhat. The box thinks this is throttle movement and varies the timing causing the idle speed to be a little irregular. I think I have that fix but need some better weather to see for sure.

 

 

To verify, you have your MAP sensor on the #2 port like they do for the 84+ stock bikes? That is where mine is and I want to make sure I am 100% identical to your setup so we can cross test and verify.

 

Also can you email me your current map? I'll load it in my bike and see if I have the exact same result.

 

I will be taking photos and doing a write-up on how to add the sensor in for others that want to follow in our footsteps. I really hope that ingitech still sends extra pins with the module as that made it super easy to add in the MAP sensor.

 

P.S. where did you mount yours? mine is floating under the gas cover with the TCI, I'm thinking of relocating it but leaving the long tubing run.

Edited April 20, 2010 by timgray

[tvking63]

To verify, you have your MAP sensor on the #2 port like they do for the 84+ stock bikes? That is where mine is and I want to make sure I am 100% identical to your setup so we can cross test and verify.

 

Yes, my MAP vacuum is on the sync port for #2 cyl. I'm also have a restrictor in line that I bought from NAPA. It really smooths out the vacuum pulses. Don't have the part # in front of me but will add it to the write up when this gets more finalized.

 

Also can you email me your current map? I'll load it in my bike and see if I have the exact same result.

 

Done.

 

 

I will be taking photos and doing a write-up on how to add the sensor in for others that want to follow in our footsteps. I really hope that ingitech still sends extra pins with the module as that made it super easy to add in the MAP sensor.

 

I have a full write up with pics in progress too.

 

P.S. where did you mount yours? mine is floating under the gas cover with the TCI, I'm thinking of relocating it but leaving the long tubing run.

 

Mine is loose to the left of the gas cap under the 'tank' cover for now. I'm using an early full size sensor but might switch to a newer, smaller one just to make more room.

 

Have you ridden much with the experimental map?

Edited July 10, 2011 by tvking63
spelling

[timgray]

I took a couple of small rides. I'm going to load your latest map on the bike this week and take a long run in stop and go traffic this weekend if the weather permits.

 

I feel that we are getting really close, and honestly my bike is running better overall than when it had the stock TCI and it ran well.

 

I do know I feel more confident in the bike for longer rides with the Ingitech than I would running a used ebay TCI.

 

I'll post an update after I get some saddle time with the current map.

 

Curious... how did you set WOT for the throttle position settings?

[timgray]

Two things. I still have the TPS signal jumping around. I put in a 1/16th inch restrictor (basically a chunk of Vac line that has that small of a center diameter) at the 1/2 way point in the line and it's still jumping a bit.

 

BUT: the current spark map does run DRASTICALLY different. I was running the better map we had for no TPS to warm up the bike, I switched off the TCI and killed the engine by flipping the run switch to off and then back on again. I loaded the new spark map and restarted.

 

The bike is a completely different beast. It ran like new at startup. actually I had to adjust idle down a bit as the new spark map was idling at 1500 rpm instead of 800. Throttle response was 800% better than before, the flat spot I was feeling at 3000 rpm is gone.

 

I tried very hard to make it knock or ping. I am running fresh low grade regular unleaded and luged the engine a lot even took off in 2nd and at 25mph I shifted to 5th and floored it. the bike happily complied.

 

I am using a GM 1 bar MAP sensor that was pulled from a 1987 car, I did not change any settings in the TPS ranges. I loaded the map, made no changes, and went for a ride.

 

I think we are dead on for a stock replacement for a 1st gen MkI and MkII. i would love to get the bike on a dyno with a known perfect stock TCI and pull some runs and then switch to the ingitech+MAP and pull some runs.

 

Awesome Job!

[The Crimson Knight]

Well I sure do wish I was having the luck that you guys are. My 88 has been stuck in the shop for the last two months!!

 

At the moment my bike STILL will not run with the ignitech box. I can't imagine that the box is bad. It has to be a setting on the software. I have attached two screenshots for review. Please let me know if you guys see anything different than what it should be or what you are seeing.

 

I also have these two videos if anyone is interested in viewing:

 

Venture starting with bad TCI: [ame=

]

[/ame]

Venture not starting with Ignitech TCI: [ame=

]

[/ame]

 

Does the map file just load the map or does it load the map and all the settings on all the tabs?

 

It looks like some enhancements have been done to the original map that TVKing posted. What is the newest, bestest (yes I said bestest), map to-date? (Post # would be best)

 

Thank you for any further help you can provide.

[tvking63]

I can't imagine that the box is bad.

 

Why? I like to use logic when diagnosing an issue.

Can you give a reason why you believe the box cannot be bad?

 

I have attached two screenshots for review. Please let me know if you guys see anything different than what it should be or what you are seeing.

 

I don't see anything in the vids or screen shots that look out of place other than the red advance error bars. I don't thing those should be like that. Even during cranking there should be input from the PU coils, otherwise there would never be any spark.....like you have.

 

 

Does the map file just load the map or does it load the map and all the settings on all the tabs?

 

It loads everything in all the tabs. So any setting that's messed up would get replace when loading a new map.

 

What is the newest, bestest (yes I said bestest), map to-date? (Post # would be best)

 

Post# 91 has the latest non-MAP but it's not much different than the map in the 1st post and isn't going to solve your problem unless the the map you have was corrupted somehow.

 

 

What if one of the wires in the adaptor harness is the wrong place?

 

Can you post some pics of the adaptor harness ends so I can compare it to mine?

 

Also FYI even if you get it fired, the bike will run like crap w/o the airbox installed. Mine even had to have the lid on to make it run right.

[The Crimson Knight]

Why? I like to use logic when diagnosing an issue.

Can you give a reason why you believe the box cannot be bad?

 

The box seems to be communicating fine with the computer and is able to pull information while attempting to crank the bike. the fact that #2 pickup isn't green and I'm getting red errors leads me to believe that the computer is detecting a problem somewhere.

 

Then again, the bike starts right up with the factory computer, even though only 3 pistons are firing. So I honestly don't know if it's good or bad..

 

All I can say is if the computer IS defective, I'll probably scrap the whole thing. Though some of you guys might, I have no interest in putting this much work into it. I'm in IT, I spend a majority of my hours troubleshooting and fixing computers and many other things. I want to ride, not work, which is what this in turning into.

 

Tinkering with lights, radios, horns, bags, seats etc. is one thing because I can still go out and ride when I want to take a break. Can't do that with this...

 

 

I don't see anything in the vids or screen shots that look out of place other than the red advance error bars. I don't thing those should be like that. Even during cranking there should be input from the PU coils, otherwise there would never be any spark.....like you have.

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

 

It loads everything in all the tabs. So any setting that's messed up would get replace when loading a new map.

 

Just checking on this. Ignitech sent me some screenshots last week for comparison and I noticed that their screenshots had some different settings than mine. That's what made me wonder about that.

 

Post# 91 has the latest non-MAP but it's not much different than the map in the 1st post and isn't going to solve your problem unless the the map you have was corrupted somehow.

 

You are correct, I just want to be running the best map in the event we get it working. That's all.

 

What if one of the wires in the adaptor harness is the wrong place?

 

Can you post some pics of the adaptor harness ends so I can compare it to mine?

 

I certainly can. I'll snap them this evening when i get home and post them for you to see.

 

Also FYI even if you get it fired, the bike will run like crap w/o the airbox installed. Mine even had to have the lid on to make it run right.

 

I am aware of this. Actually happened to me on our trip to Athens in 08. I drove all the way down there with a loose airbox and had to teardown in the Palestine parking lot to get it re-attached. Had some help from many a friendly folk.

 

Not worried about how well it runs until it runs to begin with. Just want to get it to fire.

[tvking63]

Curious... how did you set WOT for the throttle position settings?

 

I'm not sure I understand the question. I used the base timing curve from the manual to set the 100% throttle numbers.

 

Two things. I still have the TPS signal jumping around. I put in a 1/16th inch restrictor (basically a chunk of Vac line that has that small of a center diameter) at the 1/2 way point in the line and it's still jumping a bit.

 

First, you probably need a smaller restrictor. And second, if you watched the vids I posted, you would see that even with the smaller restrictor the vacuum still pulses some, so the MAP voltage will too.

 

In post #110 and #112, I acknowledged the voltage change and my solution for the time being.

 

1/16 is .063''. I tried a .030'' restrictor and it was still too big. Then I got a NAPA restrictor that's even smaller (don't have measurement) that really seemed to smooth it out. It's NAPA part # CRB 2618 or you can order it here.

 

 

 

 

I had to adjust idle down a bit as the new spark map was idling at 1500 rpm instead of 800.

 

This is probably because of the MAP voltage variation at idle causing too much advance. See post #112 . I e-mailed you a modified map that should help.

 

 

Throttle response was 800% better than before, the flat spot I was feeling at 3000 rpm is gone.

 

This is because we can now run much more timing advance at part throttle than before. I'm hoping to gain some MPG too but haven't run it any distance yet.

Edited July 19, 2010 by tvking63

[timgray]

Yup I watched the videos, I see about the same amount of jumping. I will get that napa part.

 

I'll load the new spark-map tonight you emailed me. I have a long run planned for this weekend, Hope to run through a full tank of gas that will be all highway to get a idea of gas mileage. I'll try to get in a tank full of city riding as well.

 

I was not clear on what I meant,

 

I was wondering about how you calculated what the voltage level you would enter for WOT and 0% throttle readings. I was using a vac gauge and voltmeter and was surprised that your numbers were very close to mine. I had no idea what the bike really ran at, so I took a ride with a vac gauge and tried to remember what I saw at different rpm ranges at open and closed throttle, then averaged them. then I took a vac hand pump with gauge and a voltmeter and found what the MAP was giving me.

 

 

crimson Knight... have you verified that your pickup coils are good? you need to do the voltmeter test on it to check. http://venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=28434&highlight=test+pickup+coils

http://venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13654&d=1195603168

 

I have a automotive ignition oscilliscope so I tested them when the bike was running on my defective TCI. so I saw the pulses.

Edited April 26, 2010 by timgray

[tvking63]

 

I was not clear on what I meant,

 

I was wondering about how you calculated what the voltage level you would enter for WOT and 0% throttle readings.

 

 

From post #110.

 

I've been riding around with a digital VOM tapped into the MAP signal at the IgniTech box to be as accurate as possible.. I even checked the VOM against the TPS voltage #'s in the software and they are within a few hundredths. So the numbers I'm seeing are almost exactly same #'s the box is seeing.

 

From this info I was able to set the 0% and 100% voltages for the "TPS" in the software.

 

 

The 100% voltage is the max I saw under WOT acceleration. The 0% was a bit of a guess using numbers I saw at light low speed cruise. I didn't want to use idle voltages because the TCI box is looking for TPS numbers not MAP. If I had used idle voltages the only time you would have max advance would be with the throttle closed. And what good would that be?

 

Then I tried to use the voltage the MAP sensor makes at 9.84 in Hg (the max advance curve # shown in the stock graph) but that's about 2.7v, assuming my vac gauge is close to accurate, and the software will only let me raise it to 2.5v. (remember, it's looking for closed throttle TPS voltage that wouldn't be anywhere near that high) So it's close and seems to work pretty well. I have some ideas that I may try to get it a bit closer.

 

I don't know how much we really need to screw around getting an exact match to the stock curves though. I'm thinking it's more important that it just run well. And we're already right there.

 

 

 

crimson Knight... have you verified that your pickup coils are good? you need to do the voltmeter test on it to check. http://venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=28434&highlight=test+pickup+coils

 

I have a automotive ignition oscilliscope so I tested them when the bike was running on my defective TCI. so I saw the pulses.

 

I too am concerned about his PU coils. If he has 1 or 2 bad ones and the IgniTech box combines them together, it might kill them all. I talked with him this afternoon and I think we have a plan to find out once and for all if it's the IgniTech box or not.

[The Crimson Knight]

What if one of the wires in the adaptor harness is the wrong place?

 

Can you post some pics of the adaptor harness ends so I can compare it to mine?

 

Ok here are the pics. Hope they look as good to you as they do to me!

[tvking63]

Looks good but there are 2 blues and 2 browns that I cannot tell where they go from you pictures.

 

In your 1st pic the right blue should go to the left blue in the second pic.

 

For the browns, the right one in the 1st pic should go to the one with the loop in the second pic.

 

If those check out then it's not a harness issue.