oil analysis the real facts

[Snarley Bill]

i've been hanging around the best oil sight on the net. for a couple of years, www.bobtheoilguy.com . i have been using mobil1 10w-30 extended performance energy conserving in my wing for the last 7000 miles. i'm using 4000mi. oci's on it. i will get an oil analysis in 1000 miles to see how this oil fares in my wing. most guys are using 8000 mi. oci, on the wing. i just can't go that long. in my v-twins, v-star and nomad, i switched to rotella t 15w-40 cj4, at 3000 mi. oci, because of the higher ppm of zddp. i am going to have an analysis done on both of them after two oil changes to flush them of any remnents of the other oil that was in them. as soon as i get the info back i will post it. these three bikes are a good cross section of different bikes to find out what works best in motorcycle engines. since oil is my all time favorite subject, i have to know. i will be using blackstone laboratories. this may take awhile. according to my research so far these should be the best oil choice for these three bikes. i am expecting very good wear no's in all 3 bikes. time will tell.

[eagleeye]

Sounds very interesting to me Bill.

I"ll look for your results.

Thanks,

Steve

[Kross Kountry]

Oil analysis is used to determine remaining oil life and to identify motor problems. Its has nothing to do with which oil is best. The oil anaysis cost as much if not more then the oil change, so why not just change your oil. If it help you out, synthetic oils don't break down, they just become contaminated. The crude 15 to 20 micron filters that we use will never remove all the metal and carbon particals. If you were able to find an "Oil scrubber" to fit on your fancy Gezer Glide, it too would cost way more than a simple oil change. Are you seeing a pattern here? I would go so far as to say that you could use the cheapest motor oil you can find (10w-? non-conservative), change it and the filter every 4000 miles and that Honda motor will out last you. So I'll ask you, define "Best" oil?

[saddlebum]

Oil analysis is used to determine remaining oil life and to identify motor problems. Its has nothing to do with which oil is best. The oil anaysis cost as much if not more then the oil change, so why not just change your oil. If it help you out, synthetic oils don't break down, they just become contaminated. The crude 15 to 20 micron filters that we use will never remove all the metal and carbon particals. If you were able to find an "Oil scrubber" to fit on your fancy Gezer Glide, it too would cost way more than a simple oil change. Are you seeing a pattern here? I would go so far as to say that you could use the cheapest motor oil you can find (10w-? non-conservative), change it and the filter every 4000 miles and that Honda motor will out last you. So I'll ask you, define "Best" oil?

I agree, I used oil analysis on truck fleets, the main purpose here was to catch things like coolant or diesil in the oil and sudden abnormal increase of wear metals, in order to catch possible defects before they became truely major defects. They do however also indicate an estimate of how many more miles/KM they feel the oil could have gone before changing it.

[Kross Kountry]

When an engine holds 50 gallons, and you have a whole fleet of them, it cost effective to check for remaining oil life.

[saddlebum]

It still would not hurt to do the odd oil analysis once every so many years on the motor bike just to check for wear metals but if and when you do do it you should do 2 in a row so they can see if there is an increase of wear metals occuring. JUst don't get carried away and spend a fortune on it, its only an indicator. As far as oil life is concerned as mentioned earlier its not cost effective in that regard for a motor bike.

[Kross Kountry]

If you take an oil sample at every oil change, the oil analysis will show a increasing or decreasing levels on contaminants (metals, antifreeze, carbon). What you don't do is flush the motor before the sample. You just lost all of your evidence of wear. The minor amount of the old brand or type of oil mixed in with the new will not effect the test. On a motor as small as ours, it is almost as easy to look in the motor itself and know for sure. I would guess that most engine problems in small engine is not from oil beak down, but rather from lack of oil. Which leads me back to the question for Bill. Define the "Best" oil?

[buddy]

When an engine holds 50 gallons, and you have a whole fleet of them, it cost effective to check for remaining oil life.

Street Dept. trucks we change them every 6 mo. some take 5 gallon others

10 gallons of oil per truck. 15W40 oil

Fire Dept. oil filter change twice a year top off with oil. change oil once a year.

any where from 5 gallons to 15 gallons of oil. 15W40 oil

Police Dept. every 3,000mi 7 1/2 Qts 5W20 oil & 5W30 oil

most of the other city cars or trucks take 5Qts of oil every 5,000mi

5W20 & 5W30 oil

We lost few motors in the past due to "OPERATOR ERROR"

Not once did we ever loose a motor due to oil failure. "NEVER"

And they are still going strong. Some of the police cars have well over 170,000 miles, run 24/7 days a week.

And who ever has the lowest bid on oil $ale wins the bid to sell us the oil. so we never stay with one brand of oil....

its all about maintenance....... makes my job so much easier:thumbsup2: too.

[Snarley Bill]

Oil analysis is used to determine remaining oil life and to identify motor problems. Its has nothing to do with which oil is best. The oil anaysis cost as much if not more then the oil change, so why not just change your oil. If it help you out, synthetic oils don't break down, they just become contaminated. The crude 15 to 20 micron filters that we use will never remove all the metal and carbon particals. If you were able to find an "Oil scrubber" to fit on your fancy Gezer Glide, it too would cost way more than a simple oil change. Are you seeing a pattern here? I would go so far as to say that you could use the cheapest motor oil you can find (10w-? non-conservative), change it and the filter every 4000 miles and that Honda motor will out last you. So I'll ask you, define "Best" oil?

actually i would like to learn how to work on my own bikes. so i figured i should learn a little about oil. someday i hope to build my own custom bike so i would like to have the best oil in it. thanks for the info. bill

[GeorgeS]

I now run Mobile I in all my cars, and bikes.

 

However, I will never forget back in the 70's this experience.

 

I bought a new 1975 German Opel Car. Had a 1900 CC plain jain 4 banger engine.

 

I ran that car 100 mile a day, 5 days a week going back and forth to work, at the Airport in Minneapolis, Minn. Car got to 125,000 miles. and the Clutch started slipping badly, maby that was my fault. This was tuff service due to Minnesota Winters.

 

During all that 125,000 miles, I used nothing but " Valvoline, 10W- 30W Oil "

 

NON Synthectic, Just the Cheap Stuff, I bought by the case and changed at about 3000 mile intervels.

 

Anyway, I had the engine pulled to change clutch, as long as it was removed, I asked the shop to tear down the engine, and check it out.

 

He, did so and measured the wear on " ALL " the " Dissassembled " Engine parts. All measurements were within " Factory New Engine Specs " for that engine. ie: almost NO Wear, on anything !!!! I asked him to " Hone the Cylinders walls " and install a new set of Piston Rings, and Reassemble the engine ( useing the old main bearings ) .

 

Car was reassembled, and it ran to about 180K, when my son sold it cause the Body was rusting out, The engine still was not useing any Oil.

 

 

Is there a morel to this story ?? Well, I guess plain old " Valvoline Oil ' Is pretty good stuff.

 

Do I consider the new Synthectic Oils to be a better lubricant ??? Yes !!!

 

But, plain old Valvoline, does the job !! If changed on schedule, and good filters are used.

 

Anyway, thats my story, and I'm sticking to it !!

Edited September 1, 2009 by GeorgeS

[dynodon]

There is plenty of independent proof that a quality synthetic does extend engine life. Gas, diesel, big, little. high rpm or low. Wear is the enemy and synthetics reduce wear. They can also be properly designed for wet clutches.

 

I run Amsoil, before that I used Mobil 1. I read and determined that Amsoil wins every major test of oils to be run on the highway. There are a few "racing" oils that can be proven to flow easier, but they never come out well in wear tests.

 

Heck one major oil additive company tested their additive VS several oils including Mobil 1 and Amsoil and several top regular oils. The Amsoil performed better than any oil in protecting the test equipment, and was near to what the additive was able to do.

 

But in defense of the other side, if you use a decent oil (and there ARE bad ones out there) and filter and change it often, you are treating your engine well. If you use a quality synthetic and change it less often, (and use quality filters) you are still treating your engine well, and over the life of the engine there will be less wear, and you can prove this through oil analysis.

 

Analysis also tells you if you are having a problem with too much fuel, a coolant leak, a bad air filter and more. ONe test alerted me to a tiny hole in a K&N filter years ago, and once I sealed the leak, the test went back to normal. Might never have found the leak otherwise.

 

Even in small engines, if you follow a routine of extended drain intervals, quality filters and oil analysis, you CAN save money over changing oil in the typical 3000 mile intervals, plus you put less used oil in the environment, and spend less time under the car or bike.

 

Just my experience, and yes, I am an Amsoil dealer, I became one to save money on the product, and not for the "business" although you can make a business out of it.

[edger]

There is plenty of independent proof that a quality synthetic does extend engine life. Gas, diesel, big, little. high rpm or low. Wear is the enemy and synthetics reduce wear. They can also be properly designed for wet clutches.

 

I run Amsoil, before that I used Mobil 1. I read and determined that Amsoil wins every major test of oils to be run on the highway. There are a few "racing" oils that can be proven to flow easier, but they never come out well in wear tests.

 

Heck one major oil additive company tested their additive VS several oils including Mobil 1 and Amsoil and several top regular oils. The Amsoil performed better than any oil in protecting the test equipment, and was near to what the additive was able to do.

 

 

100% in agreement. I did many hours of research and homework and found in even independent studies that amsoil came out far on top on any other oils. I use it in my bike and my cars. The drawback is that it is not easily accessable. I have to order it. That part is a bummer. But I am willing to put up with a little inconvenience for my babies!!! PS, no I am not a dealer.

[Guest tx2sturgis]

When an engine holds 50 gallons, and you have a whole fleet of them, it cost effective to check for remaining oil life.

 

Wow...thats a large engine...maybe a marine diesel...

Edited September 1, 2009 by tx2sturgis

[timgray]

I run a synthetic because the transmission gears are bathed in it and the bike shifts a LOT smoother with 15W40 Mobil 1 for trucks in it than Yamalube. Also I am hoping that the wear on the 2nd gear thrust washer is reduced so that I can limp the bike along for another 2 years before I can afford to have the transmission fixed.

[Bummer]

... So I'll ask you, define "Best" oil?

The "Best" oil for my bike is the one that makes me the most comfortable. Right now I use Yamaha's new 15-50 synthetic. Why? Well, because, of course.

[V7Goose]

The information gleaned from the comparison of different oils in different engines may be mildly interesting, but it will be completely meaningless.

 

Let's talk for a minute about oil analysis and WHY it is done (along with how).

 

If a lab or other organization is attempting to compare different oils for the purpose of identifying the "best" (or at least how they differ), then an analysis is one of the important tools. But to have ANY value in this way, each oil must be run through the same "use" under carefully controlled conditions - run for the same length of time, under the same loads and temperatures, in ideally the same engine, or at the very least, substantially identical engines. In addition, a decent comparison will include multiple analysies of the same oil at various points over the test life to see how fast each changes in the various properties that are being examined.

 

In contrast oil analysis for a specific vehicle is done for very different reasons, and several members above have already touched on these. Generally, the specific condition of the oil at each change is relatively unimportant - the owner has already decided on an appropriate change interval. While the results of multiple analysis tests over time might change the owner's mind about what that interval should be, it is not the main interest.

 

What IS the main interest? The contaminates found in the oil at the end of the change interval, specifically the types and amounts of metals that will indicate types of wear and specific components that are wearing, along with other contaminates that will indicate a change in the effectiveness of the combustion process or bad seals. But for this information to be useful, the analysis must be done on EVERY oil change for that engine, from the time it is new, and then the results of each oil analysis compared to the previous results.

 

A one-time oil analysis on any particular engine will have all the value of bird poop on paper - someone may find the image mildly interesting, but it will mean exactly nothing. And even if you compare several successive oil anaysis reports for different bikes, you still cannot draw any valid conclusions about the particular oils, only about the current state of each individual engine and how it has worn using whatever particular oil it has.

Goose

Edited September 1, 2009 by V7Goose

[BoomerCPO]

On every Nuclear Submarine I served on there was a Lube Oil Purifier in the Engine Room. That unit was not complex yet it kept thousands of gallons of Lube Oil perfectly CLEAN.....so much so that when I De-Commissioned 2 of those Subs after 30 years of service they still had the ORIGINAL Lube Oil loaded on when the Sub was built.

 

Pity we don't have oil purifiers for our scoots,cars,and trucks.....THEN THERE WOULD BE NO ENDLESS DISCUSSION ABOUT OIL......

 

Boomer........who knows choosing oil is jest like choosing a woman....sometimes yer lucky and sometimes yer not.

[RandyR]

Bill,

 

I notice you are using 'energy conserving' oil which is contrary to Yamaha's recommendations. So how does one know whether or not the additives are starting to reduce the friction bonding of one's clutch. It may take a while. It appears that 2nd Gen engines may need new/stronger clutch springs at 50,000 miles anyway, but it takes awhile.

[Snarley Bill]

Bill,

 

I notice you are using 'energy conserving' oil which is contrary to Yamaha's recommendations. So how does one know whether or not the additives are starting to reduce the friction bonding of one's clutch. It may take a while. It appears that 2nd Gen engines may need new/stronger clutch springs at 50,000 miles anyway, but it takes awhile.

i haven't got a clue.

[Condor]

With all the talk about oils, and which one is best, how many of you are plannning on putting on that many miles that it will make any difference? These V4's are almost bullet proof, and will take a lot of abuse and neglect. I've never heard of one doing a melt down or wear out due to poor oil. IMHO any oil that's changed at regular intervals will keep the motor lasting longer than the rest of the bike. Getting theoretical about oils is a waste of time. Getting anal about oil changes isn't. Where are all the 300,000+ mile engines?? Except for a small minority of Venture's, most bikes will never see the 100,000 mile mark in their lifetime. Yeah...yeah... I know, oil talk is mental gymnastics...

[BoomerCPO]

You bring up valid points there Condor. Re-affirms my belief that regular oil changes and using a good quality oil filter is MORE important than the type of oil used.

 

Gotta admit tho I use the high-priced Mobil 1 Synthetic but it sure helps the bike run smoother and calms that durn "chirp" down too.

 

 

Boomer........the guy who does it his way on the highway.

[BigBoyinMS]

Where I grew up in the '60's and '70's people would use the least expensive and easily accessible oil in their vehicles. That happened to be Quaker State 30w non-detergent. On top of that they would hardly change it. And it would make a mess of an engine. Hard, crusty deposits that looked like there had been a hi-temp fire in the engine that carbonized all the oil.

Because of this, Quaker State got a really bad (undeserved) reputation in the South because of mis-use of their product. The 30w non-detergent was meant only for small engines such as lawn mowers.

 

I said all that just to say that I don't really think there are any bad oils out there these days. In my opinion, you do need to keep the viscosity close and make sure not to use an "Energy Conserving" oil.

But some oils are better than others! Synthetics are always going to beat the dino oils. If I could ride down to the local parts store or Wally World and pick up Amsoil at a discount then I would probably use only that. But since I can't, I'll probably stick with the 15w40 Rotella Dino or Mobile-1. (Until Rotella Synthetic starts coming in 15w40. ) I would be using the Rotella 5w40 Synthetic right now but I'm not comfortable with it in 100+ degree temps. I started hearing more noises with it, especially in my air-cooled Road Star. And yes, I know others use it in the same bikes in the same sort of temps. It's a good oil but just too thin for my bikes. But the Cummins in my Dodge loves it! I gained 15% on my fuel mileage.

 

Anyway, that's just my nickels worth of hot air.

[Snarley Bill]

i can't believe how much i have learned about oil and oil analysis on this thread. and i thought i knew something. :clap2:

[Guest tx2sturgis]

 

Pity we don't have oil purifiers for our scoots,cars,and trucks.....THEN THERE WOULD BE NO ENDLESS DISCUSSION ABOUT OIL......

 

 

You CAN buy them...they are called 'bypass filters' and they are used on some on-highway trucks, in the construction industry, and in military and marine applications.

 

One major well-known manufacturer is called Gulf Coast Filters.

 

http://www.gulfcoastfilters.com/

 

For vehicles such as OTR trucks, it makes sense, when your doing a $200 oil change every month or two, to use these. And military and marine uses are obvious. But for the normal consumer operated car, pickup, or motorcycle, its just not cost effective...when you can pull into a local quick-lube place or dealer and get it done for $25.00, 2 or 3 times a year.

 

( in the case of motorcycles, changing your own oil is easy and fairly inexpensive on most bikes...yes I know some dealers charge over $100 on some bikes)

 

Bypass filters can extend heavy truck, OTR oil drain intervals to over 500,000 miles or more. But you will be paying for oil analysis, filters, top-up oil, and occasionally, an additive or two.

 

One more consideration...most private vehicle consumers do not put much more than 100,000 miles on a vehicle, and they know they will be trading it before the engine would wear out. So...for MOST consumers, why would they spend $800-$1000 dollars on a bypass filter system that would only save them...maybe..$50-$100 a year...answer is...they wont.

 

Edited September 1, 2009 by tx2sturgis

[FreezyRider]

Where I grew up in the '60's and '70's people would use the least expensive and easily accessible oil in their vehicles. That happened to be Quaker State 30w non-detergent. On top of that they would hardly change it. And it would make a mess of an engine. Hard, crusty deposits that looked like there had been a hi-temp fire in the engine that carbonized all the oil.

Because of this, Quaker State got a really bad (undeserved) reputation in the South because of mis-use of their product. The 30w non-detergent was meant only for small engines such as lawn mowers.

 

I said all that just to say that I don't really think there are any bad oils out there these days. In my opinion, you do need to keep the viscosity close and make sure not to use an "Energy Conserving" oil.

But some oils are better than others! Synthetics are always going to beat the dino oils. If I could ride down to the local parts store or Wally World and pick up Amsoil at a discount then I would probably use only that. But since I can't, I'll probably stick with the 15w40 Rotella Dino or Mobile-1. (Until Rotella Synthetic starts coming in 15w40. ) I would be using the Rotella 5w40 Synthetic right now but I'm not comfortable with it in 100+ degree temps. I started hearing more noises with it, especially in my air-cooled Road Star. And yes, I know others use it in the same bikes in the same sort of temps. It's a good oil but just too thin for my bikes. But the Cummins in my Dodge loves it! I gained 15% on my fuel mileage.

 

Anyway, that's just my nickels worth of hot air.

 

At normal operating temps there is NO difference in viscosity between 15w-40 and 5w-40 if all that I've read over the years is correct. The 'w' number is a flow rating at very cold temps...not exactly sure what the actual temp is that is used for the test. The other number is the viscosity (flow capability) at higher temps where your engine runs. In fact, the 5w-40 probably offers more protection for your engine, not less, due to its ability to flow quickly to your engine parts when temps are low...like at a cold start.

That Rotella 5w-40 is used big time in the trucking industry and other heavy duty applications. They wouldn't be using it if it offered less protection at a higher price.

 

Joe