Help, broke down 2,000 miles from home

[V7Goose]

Just as an FYI, there IS a wire running between the VP pin on the Ignitor and one of the flasher relays. This same white wire also connects to the fuel meter, the throttle position sensor, the cruise control, and the audio system! I have absolutely no idea what this wire does, but it certainly suggests that there is a common cause for the fast-flash of the signal lights and failure to run, as well as the possiblility that the problem is coming from a seemingly unrelated part of the bike.

 

So I am going to revise my troubleshooting just a little. If all the items I have already identified check out correctly, and the bike still will not run with a known-good ignitor, I would then pull ALL the fuses except the minimum needed to run the bike (probably just the main fuse and the ignition fuse) just to see if that made any difference. If it does, then I'd put them back in, one at a time, until the bike quit working. That would tell me what circuit to focus on.

 

Like I said, probably not much help, but I'm throwing out everything I got . . .

Goose

[Seaking]

Just as an FYI, there IS a wire running between the VP pin on the Ignitor and one of the flasher relays. This same white wire also connects to the fuel meter, the throttle position sensor, the cruise control, and the audio system! I have absolutely no idea what this wire does, but it certainly suggests that there is a common cause for the fast-flash of the signal lights and failure to run, as well as the possiblility that the problem is coming from a seemingly unrelated part of the bike.

 

So I am going to revise my troubleshooting just a little. If all the items I have already identified check out correctly, and the bike still will not run with a known-good ignitor, I would then pull ALL the fuses except the minimum needed to run the bike (probably just the main fuse and the ignition fuse) just to see if that made any difference. If it does, then I'd put them back in, one at a time, until the bike quit working. That would tell me what circuit to focus on.

 

Like I said, probably not much help, but I'm throwing out everything I got . . .

Goose

 

Wow, if not much help, as you apologised for, it certainly was quite educational! Basics yes, but man, one heck of a good refresher!! Thanks.

 

I appreciate your comments about not personally seeing the spark and such, but body language and tone of voice from both the service manager and technicians leads me to believe they did an honest attempt to try to remedy the problem.. however, weirder things have happened in the past.. not being there to personally oversee the works, I can't attest to everything being done as told.. SO..

 

The shop we're going to see on monday said they have a show floor model available to rob parts from and we'll see about doing the ignition module first.

 

Its sunday today and the bike is sitting in their lot across the street from the hotel, (not bad set up eh?).. If it's not raining today I'll pull the fuses and see if anything changes. I mean anything IS possible.. As you indicated with finding that ONE wire leading from the ignition module, it appears to be unrelated but might actually be the leading culprit cause.

 

I may pull the fairing off if possible today to check for bad wiring under there, there had been munged wiring in the past where the previous owners' added on wiring got eaten up in the steering stops.. Since the signal light switch goes down that way, I can at least check for that as well..

 

If nothing else, so far this has been quite the educational trip!!

 

Skydog noticed that my rear shock was dead as well.. (I had nothing to compare it to really since I keep mine pumped up higher than my riding partner does his).. If the dealership here is nice, maybe they'll rob the one out of their bike and install it onto mine as warranty work

 

As soon as we find anything, I'll drop you a line and let you know what's the what what..

 

thanks again.. I truly appreciate your help !

[V7Goose]

I appreciate your comments about not personally seeing the spark and such, but body language and tone of voice from both the service manager and technicians leads me to believe they did an honest attempt to try to remedy the problem.. however, weirder things have happened in the past.. not being there to personally oversee the works, I can't attest to everything being done as told.. SO..

 

The shop we're going to see on monday said they have a show floor model available to rob parts from and we'll see about doing the ignition module first.

 

Its sunday today and the bike is sitting in their lot across the street from the hotel, (not bad set up eh?).. If it's not raining today I'll pull the fuses and see if anything changes. I mean anything IS possible.. As you indicated with finding that ONE wire leading from the ignition module, it appears to be unrelated but might actually be the leading culprit cause.

 

I may pull the fairing off if possible today to check for bad wiring under there, there had been munged wiring in the past where the previous owners' added on wiring got eaten up in the steering stops.. Since the signal light switch goes down that way, I can at least check for that as well..

 

If nothing else, so far this has been quite the educational trip!!

 

Skydog noticed that my rear shock was dead as well.. (I had nothing to compare it to really since I keep mine pumped up higher than my riding partner does his).. If the dealership here is nice, maybe they'll rob the one out of their bike and install it onto mine as warranty work

 

As soon as we find anything, I'll drop you a line and let you know what's the what what..

 

thanks again.. I truly appreciate your help !

In saying I refuse to believe that they have spark, I was not for a second trying to imply they did not make a real effort to find and fix the problem - just getting those coils covered under warranty shows more than indifference and laziness! But while I think they may actually care and try, I don't necessarily think they are competent. The fact the supposedly trained mechanic didn't know how to check a coil is a pretty big indicator of that. Furthermore, even generally honest folks are often reluctant to admit their own mistakes or incompetence, so claiming they have spark now could simply be saving face by "proving" the old coils really needed to be replaced. Finally, there is always a slight possibility that we have a weak spark in free air, but one that is not strong enough to flash in a compressed rich fuel mixture. And then there is the fact that I'll never believe those original coils of yours were really bad without testing them myself, so if you have spark now, you had spark in the beginning!

 

Now, if you can work on the bike today, here is your real chance to put the spark question to rest! Just pull one of the rear plugs and hold it next to the engine and see for yourself. Even if you don't want to pull a plug, use a long nail or piece of coat hanger as a substitute.

 

It is great you found you have some warranty coverage now that you know the shock is bad - that is another $600 or so right there! Hope they can pull a miracle out of the hat for you on that one. But if not, it may make sense to try and find a shop that will order you one and let you return later to get it - a trip back might be cheaper than buying a new shock yourself! Heck, if that new shop you are going to is really as helpful as they sound, they might go ahead and order it for you, then let you pull your old shock and mail it to someone locally to exchange for you. Best of luck in it all,

Goose

[royalstarjac]

Sorry for your troubles Seaking.

I'm wondering if you have passing lamps on your bike and if you do if they are wired thru the ignition switch as the factory recommends. That is a well known cause of early ignition switch failure.

[Cougar]

Thinking the same thing all along... (a wire short up front)

Just waiting to

hear the out come of this whole darn mess. And so

sorry to hear of these troubles your having Seaking!

Jeff

[Seaking]

In saying I refuse to believe that they have spark, I was not for a second trying to imply they did not make a real effort to find and fix the problem - just getting those coils covered under warranty shows more than indifference and laziness! But while I think they may actually care and try, I don't necessarily think they are competent. The fact the supposedly trained mechanic didn't know how to check a coil is a pretty big indicator of that. Furthermore, even generally honest folks are often reluctant to admit their own mistakes or incompetence, so claiming they have spark now could simply be saving face by "proving" the old coils really needed to be replaced. Finally, there is always a slight possibility that we have a weak spark in free air, but one that is not strong enough to flash in a compressed rich fuel mixture. And then there is the fact that I'll never believe those original coils of yours were really bad without testing them myself, so if you have spark now, you had spark in the beginning!

 

Now, if you can work on the bike today, here is your real chance to put the spark question to rest! Just pull one of the rear plugs and hold it next to the engine and see for yourself. Even if you don't want to pull a plug, use a long nail or piece of coat hanger as a substitute.

 

It is great you found you have some warranty coverage now that you know the shock is bad - that is another $600 or so right there! Hope they can pull a miracle out of the hat for you on that one. But if not, it may make sense to try and find a shop that will order you one and let you return later to get it - a trip back might be cheaper than buying a new shock yourself! Heck, if that new shop you are going to is really as helpful as they sound, they might go ahead and order it for you, then let you pull your old shock and mail it to someone locally to exchange for you. Best of luck in it all,

Goose

 

Thanks Goose, point taken about the techs at the first place..

 

I'll be moseying over to the bike today for lack of anything else to do (too many college girls to admire today!)

 

If the shop here can't do my shock under warranty for various reasons (they have to dismantle a serviceable bike after all to do this if none in stock on the shelves), I'll be checking with some shops in Maine on my way home about setting it up.. it's just an 8 hour bike ride from where I live to Bangor..

 

thanks again M8

[Seaking]

Sorry for your troubles Seaking.

I'm wondering if you have passing lamps on your bike and if you do if they are wired thru the ignition switch as the factory recommends. That is a well known cause of early ignition switch failure.

 

Oddly enough, yes I have passing lamps on the bike but unsure where they are wired into to make them work, to be honest.. The lights work, the switch works and no probs in there.

 

I see where you might be going with this but again, it doesn't quite lead up to what's wrong with the bike. I had already removed the front mount cover to the light bar and played the wires around trying to see if it would have any effect on the signal lights etc but to no avail..

 

Anything IS possible though..

 

Cheers

[davepa]

Just checking in...any good news from the 2nd dealer?

 

It was nice meeting you the other day, even though I rode in on my OTHER bike.

 

May head your way this afternoon to pick up my 89 VR , if I can pin down Earl, might have to turn your misfortune into a meet and "EAT"!

 

Where is the dealer located?

[Seaking]

Ok lads, I'm in Philly tonight, the techs at State College, Penn were able to figure out what was wrong with the bike within an hour or so, get it fixed and ready for me in short time.. No kidding.. wow.

 

And you'll never guess what it was after all this..

 

the FUEL PUMP

 

No joke, the gent who did the work simply said it was basic troubleshooting that led him to find what was wrong and what to fix. They were kind enough to rob the part from a 2009 model on the show floor and put it on my bike, covered under warranty.

 

(below is off the top of my head, I hope it makes for good reading, listing a story hopefuly no one else has to go through...

 

Why did the fuel pump fool everyone? Well a bunch of funny things happened to cause all this confusion.. a lot of strange symptoms and weird indications compounded to point us in the wrong direction but everyone SHOULD take note of this one as there was one odd thing about it that no one, even the rep tech knew about.

 

The 06 Midnight had quit on me a couple of times before, the engine basically shut down with no forwarning, no coughs, hiccups or any indications. Last week, it shut down hard after a speed run while visiting Skydoc in Pennsylvania. The bike sat on the side of the road for 20 mins and wouldn't start up again like it had the previous first two times but it eventually did and ran fine.. Hmm what is causing all these shut downs.. electrics looked good, fuel was good.. hmmm

 

We took it to the local shop there, explained that the front jugs were hot, rear jugs were cool (something I checked after recommendations from advice here as possibly the rear coils were dying, a comon occurence on these bikes).. The techs there took the bike in that same afternoon and checked the coils, couldn't find anything wrong with them, but I ordered new coils anyway, as a precaution.. They had checked for fuel flow and spark and everything was good.. The next morning, I opted to take the bike from the shop for a ride around the area, and bring it back when the coils arrived.. the bike started fine but as it was warming up, it went to shyte and would not start again. It would crank over, but wouldn't catch.. what the heck..? So we left the bike there waiting for the coils to arrive.

 

When they got the coils installed, the bike still wouldn't start.. they pulled the front coils and test fine. Goose had suggested I insist they get a hold of the yammy rep and they were told how to properly test the coils and the front ones were found to be dead, as were the rear ones.. So oddly enough, all 4 coils were dead.. Ahhh OK.. so we waited for the front coils to come in.. But still nothing worked.. bike would crank but not catch.. argh.

 

They tested everything Goose listed as 'possible' even if not probably, just in case because you never know.. I was told that the tech saw good spark on all four plugs, and confirmed there was fuel, from the pump and at the carbs (from the first night we brought the bike over).. But Goose was convinced the tech never saw a good spark.. they didn't seem like they were trying to pull the wool over my eyes but man.. something was NOT adding up here..

 

So finally, on Saturday (tuesday is when the bike failed).. we opted to bail from the dealership and Skydoc arranged to have the bike hauled to another dealer out in State College, a city about 45 mins away.. (Thanks!) Luckily the dealer was across the street from a nice hotel so my buddy and I were able to hide from the unbearable heat in that part of the state.. wow.. The day we went to pick up the bike to haul it away, I tried to start the bike and hit the signal light and noticed how the signal lights were now blinking super fast.. you know how you have a dead bulb, the other will blink super fast? Well all 4 bulbs were good, but left and right signal lights were flashing super fast.. but not the hazard (4 way) lights.. huh? So what the heck? Not only can't I start the bike, but now I have a lighting issue.. man.. it just gets weird and worse.. BLECH!!

 

Fast forward to monday morning (today) and I talk to their tech, tried to explain the litany of the long story, as to what was already checked and was going to suggest, hey might as well check the ignition module, which was going to be my next guess..

 

But he kindly told me that he needed to do his troubleshooting from scratch to see what the problem was and see where he was at.. Gees, good thing too cause it didn't take him long to find what the prob was!\

 

Here's the fun part.. A dead fuel pump will not allow you to start the bike. According to the tech, the rear jugs will get gravity fuel ok, but the front jugs need the pump.. if no pump, then no gas.. And how did he figure this out? He cranked the bike over and over and then pulled the tank off, pulled the plugs and the rear plugs are wet, the front ones dryer than dry.. he did the fuel feed test and yep, no fuel pump feeding the front.. rear ones were getting gravity fuel, thus being wet with fuel.. HUH! But wait, the first guys did a fuel test and said it was good.. oh wait a tic, that was the night before I tried to take it out for a spin the next morning.. and THAT was the 'straw' that finally killed the pump dead for good.. before that it was intermittent.. and difficult to confirm as the culprit!!

 

Remember the fast flashing signal lights? Well when the bike died on tuesday, i thought I had observed the signal light flashing fast but it went back to normal soon afterwards.. and never gave it a second thought.

 

As soon as the new pump was installed, the signal lights flashed normal again and have been since then. I'll go out on a limb here and say that this is a diagnostic tool for a pump failure.. Anyone else see this before??

 

We left State College in mid day heat, ran it high speed, slow speed, stuck in stop and go traffic for an hour on the highway (HOT!) and blasted the hell out of the bike and she's performing soooo much better than she had most of the summer.. wow.

 

And on top of all that, my buddy's 2008 Venture, with stock air and mufflers was enjoying much better fuel milage than I could with my K&N air filters and RK pipes.. on a run, if he put 4 gallons in, I'd usually put 4.6 or so.. But today, twice now, I was within .1 and .2 gallons to his mileage.. wow.. and we were hauling assets today!

 

Man, what a week this has been.. BUT the upside has been that we got to spend some extra time with Skydoc and his missus, had great ribs at Mel's, know the WalMart there inside out (there is an inside story there).. discovered that my US bike actually DOES have warranty on it here in the USA but not in Canada.., and for a few bucks I got a lot of new parts on the bike I normally wouldn't have had replaced at home.. And when I come back to visit Skydoc, the State College dealer will replace my rear shock when I drop in to see them.. how cool is that?

 

The only thing the bike needs now is a decent carb synch.. I never though of asking to have it done there but not that all 4 cylinders are banging away properly, and new coils, fuel pump, plugs and etc etc, the engine could use a weeeee bit of adjustment to smooth things out a tad more.

 

Ok guys, this is a lot of writing, it's been a loooooong day's ride through 95'F heat here and I'm off to bed.. wow.. what a week..

 

Once again, I do wish to thank Goose for his sage advice, it did come in handy. A comedy of errors led us to chase down the wrong snag.. but in the long wrong, a lot of good came out of it..

 

Until next time..

 

-----

 

OH BTW, it just occured to me.. And this is a warning to be heeded by all who decline to change their fuel filters because it's in such a horrible location making it a pain to change it out on a regular schedule... If you'll remember, in May I had another 'shut down' issue involving fuel starvation, where as the bike would starve of fuel because the fuel filter was so dirty, the pump couldn't suck enough fuel from the tank past the filter unless it had enough 'head pressure' from more than half full tank of fuel.. once it got below a certain level, it would starve and quit.. A fuel filter change resolved that issue..

 

now imagine how much strain THAT all put on the pump during all that time?? I wouldn't be surprised that some of that was part in partial leading up to this fuel pump failure.

 

Usually, pumps fail.. period.. This one failed.. intermitently.. and was difficult to diagnose the problem..

 

SO CHANGE YOUR FUEL FILTERS!!

Edited August 11, 2009 by Seaking
An afterthought

[FuzzyRSTD]

Thanks for all that news Seeking, I am glad you made it and figured it all out. I hope I never have a problem like that away from home. Well I quess I better figure out where that fuel filter is.

James

[Seaking]

Thanks for all that news Seeking, I am glad you made it and figured it all out. I hope I never have a problem like that away from home. Well I quess I better figure out where that fuel filter is.

James

 

Just think of the most ignorant impossible location on your bike to put a fuel filter and that's where you're going to find it.. Under the seat, near behind the coolant overflow tank.. you take the left, centre and right panels off, unbolt the fuel pump for access.. be sure to turn off the fuel valve (petcock) and be ready to catch a bit of fuel when you pull the line off the filter.

 

I just reached down and push the filter out of the holder and push the new one back up.. BE SURE to verify the flow direction arrow when you install it.. It doesn't take me long to change one now, I've been changing them on my friends' RSV this summer.. a little preventive maintenance goes a looooong way!

[Tom]

Now all you need to do is find your way to TEXAS and we will have a few good days of riding and BBQ and Texas tales to tell!

[Seaking]

Now all you need to do is find your way to TEXAS and we will have a few good days of riding and BBQ and Texas tales to tell!

 

Funny enough you mention that, I'm already planning a trip to TX next May to get some maintenance learnin' under my belt by some of the learned tech in this forum.. Gonna try to time it in so that on my return trip I'll be able to hit Rolling Thunder..

 

I'm interested in learning how to do the neck bearings, floats and valves, plus anything else that might pop up lol..

 

We did that 1800+ miles from here to Sky doc in 2 full days.. we likes to ride, can ya tell?

[Tom]

Funny enough you mention that, I'm already planning a trip to TX next May to get some maintenance learnin' under my belt by some of the learned tech in this forum.. Gonna try to time it in so that on my return trip I'll be able to hit Rolling Thunder..

 

I'm interested in learning how to do the neck bearings, floats and valves, plus anything else that might pop up lol..

 

We did that 1800+ miles from here to Sky doc in 2 full days.. we likes to ride, can ya tell?

 

Let me know when and Ill leave a light on for ya PLUS get BuddyRich and Ponch , V7Goose , Gunboat and the gang and we will have a Meet Eat,Ride . Heck of a good time Day

[Seaking]

Let me know when and Ill leave a light on for ya PLUS get BuddyRich and Ponch , V7Goose , Gunboat and the gang and we will have a Meet Eat,Ride . Heck of a good time Day

 

hehe that would be sweet.. =)

[davepa]

Hey Seaking are you the one that placed a $2 Canadian coin in my 89 VR trunk? If so, it will remain there. When the trunk is opened I will be reminded of your visit to Pennsylvania and I am sure a story will follow...

 

Glad both you gentleman made it home safely!

Until we meet again....Regards Dave

[Seaking]

Hey Seaking are you the one that placed a $2 Canadian coin in my 89 VR trunk? If so, it will remain there. When the trunk is opened I will be reminded of your visit to Pennsylvania and I am sure a story will follow...

 

Glad both you gentleman made it home safely!

Until we meet again....Regards Dave

 

haha so you found it.. I leave a CDN coin on foreign soil to mark it as a visited spot.. When I sail overseas, I toss a coin over the side to appease the Sea Gods.. (I'm only a SeaKING after all)..

 

It was great meeting you as well and next time we're down that way we'll have to hook up again.. but leave the HD behind and bring the lovely 1st with you hehe..