Help, broke down 2,000 miles from home

[Seaking]

hi guys, I'm down in PA visiting friends and the bike broke down weird.. The other week I reported the bike shutting down for no reason but it would restart easily as if nothing had happened. Because of that, we decided to continue to head out on this road trip as the problem never reoccured after those two initial incidents.

 

We rode the whole 2,000 miles down here in the heat, no probs what so ever, over hill, dale and high speeds, slow speeds, the bike was running flawless until after we got here.. oops. We did a fill up 100 miles before getting to destination.

 

After an initital meet and greet we headed out for a local ride and after a 'spirited' run, the bike switched off once again as before.. I pulled over onto the side of the highway and waited a few minutes but could not get it started again. After perhaps 30 mins we pushed the bike down the road with me on it, just to get it off the highway and while coasting, I hit the start button and boom.. good to go! she fired up and stayed running, lots of power an as before, like nothing had happened. But when we get back to the house here, we decided to take it up to the local dealer in this small town to see if they could test the coils, as this was the one item everyone had been leaning on before.

 

The first night they had the bike they tested the coils and couldn't find anything wrong with them so I decided to order new ones anyway to remove that 'maybe perhaps' issues out of the way for good.. But when I picked up the bike the following morning, it fired up AOK but after 5 minutes of idling getting ready to roll away for the day while waiting for the coils to arrive, the bike died and never started again.. Full choke or no choke, it would no longer catch and stay running. So I left the bike with them yesteday waiting for the new coils to arrive today and hope that this woudl finally resolve the problem.

 

As a precaution I had them replace the fuel filter and spark plugs as well. New coils arrived, they installed them and fugh.. same thing..can't get the bike to fire up.

 

The bike had run smoothly and perfectly on the way down here, 2000 miles in 2.5 days and no probs what so ever.. but that one run locally did something to the bike and no one knows what's what. The local dealer is a small one, and they are stumped. I'm sort of on a short schedule as it is now and with no resolution in sight as to what might be the problem I'm hoping someone here might have a glimmer of hope!

 

Conditions: new plugs, new fuel filter, bike on premium gas. new air filter and new oil change before departure a few days ago.

 

While rolling on the highway, engine shuts down. Lights still work. Bike restarted and ran fine for the rest of the ride. However no longer able to get the bike started. Cranks over ok but won't catch or stay running.

 

One weird thing to point out and I don't know if this means anything but I noticed that when the bike shut down the first time here, I had the signal light on and the indicated blinked rather oddly but my ride buddy behind me said the rear signal lights appeared normal. I honestly don't know but I had the feeling this might had been a diagnostic code that the signal light blinked fast at first and then settled down normally.

 

I don't think it's the kick stand switch or the ignition switch that has gone wonky as the bike will crank over but it's simply not catching..

 

So folks, if you have any sage words of advice to help us out.. please let me know.

 

Cheers

[Squeeze]

My first Check would be, do the Plugs have Spark ?

 

If so, try to spray something like Brake Cleaner or Starter Fluid into the Intake and see what happens...

 

If no Spark,

-check the Red/white Wires on the Coil Connectors for having +12 Volts

-check Pick-Up Coil Leads

 

 

I'd suspect a bad Main Switch, though.

[V7Goose]

Sorry to hear about your problems. It is unfortunate that the shop couldn't find the issue without your having to order all four new coils - it is extremely unlikely that anything could cause all four coils to go bad at the same time, and even with two of them out, the bike will still run! But as you said, it certainly does remove any question about the coils! Just keep those old ones - 99% chance they are good.

 

Only two things will kill the bike like you describe - loss of fuel and loss of spark. If it was fuel, it wouldn't just completely die without warning - there would be some missing and hesitation as the first couple of carbs ran dry. So if it just died in mid-step, it has to be electrical.

 

Can't be any of the interlocks, since I'm pretty sure that ALL of them disable both the ignition AND the starter, and you said it cranks fine. I wanted to get this reply to you quickly, so I haven't pulled the schematic to double-check the details, but the most likely culprit would bee either the pickup coil or the ingnitor (or any wires to them, of course). The other possibility would be intermittent fuses or the starting circuit cutoff relay (does a whole bunch more than just cut out the starter). I'd start by reseating the plugs on all three of those units. since your problem is clearly intermittent, it could very easily be just a bad pin contact. I'll check the circuits and post more detailed troubleshooting tests to isolate which item is bad.

Goose

[utadventure]

As I read through the postings, it sounds to me more like what some of the others have experienced when having issues with the ignition switch going bad.

 

There is a thread with instructions to bypass the switch. It may be worth consideration so you can enjoy the remainder of your trip.

 

The other thought that comes to mind is the TCI (do you have that on the 2nd Gen bikes?)

 

Best of luck on a quick, effective repair.

 

Dave

[Marcarl]

Check the area around your triple tree and up into the faring, could be a wire there that just got to play around too much and eventually gave up altogether. Sounds to me to be a wire that is broken or let go of the end connector. As is released completely it touched ground, which would give you the unexpected flashing from the flashing unit.

Just some of my thoughts.

[dray]

this may be what your looking for

 

[ame=http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=512]Emergency Ignition Switch Repair - VentureRider.Org[/ame]

[V7Goose]

Quick analysis of the circuits (means no guarantee I haven't missed something!):

 

Since the bike cranks, I don't see any realistic way the SCR could be causing the problem - any of the diodes that might be bad would affect the starter too. Fuel pump or the fuel pump part of the SCR can't be bad unless you had some indication the bike was starving for fuel when it died each time.

 

Ignition Switch: There are two parts of this switch, the main part provides power to the starter relay, kill switch, coils, ignitior, etc. That part cannot be your problem or it would not crank. BUT, there is a second section of the ignition switch that passes a ground to the SS pin on the ignitor, and that COULD cause your symptoms. Easy check is to unplug the ignition switch and use an ohm meter to check continuity between the Blue/yellow and Blue/black wires when the key is turned on. If you HAVE continuity, the switch is working fine.

 

EMERGENCY Stop Switch: (NOT the Kill switch) - the Emergency Stop Switch is #28 on the schematic, and it provides a ground to the ignitor on pin AS. I THINK this is the roll-over switch and it is normally CLOSED (meaning ground at pin AS), but I have not found that actual switch described yet to verify if it is NO or NC; however, the test seems to describes it as going from 0 ohms to infinite when tipped 50 degrees in either direction. In addition, if this switch is not working, the check engine light should flash 9 times when the key is first turned on. That also seems to support the conclusion that the switch should be NC. But if you are not getting the error code from the check engine light when you first turn on the key, I strongly doubt the problem is in the Emergency Stop Switch - problem not worth testing that further.

 

In the absence of any more information on this, the test would be to find the plug for it (two pin with Black and Black/white wires), disconnect the switch and check for continuity. If the switch HAS continuity now, that means it is currently providing a ground to pin AS, so just leave it unplugged and try to start the bike. But if the switch is currently open, the test would be to use a small wire to jumper between the B and B/W wires in the plug (making sure you are jumpering the plug that runs to the bike, not the side that runs to the switch!) and then try to start the bike.

 

12V to Coils: The power to the coils comes from the Kill switch, but we know your kill switch is fine since the bike cranks. But wires could still be bad, so check for 12V at one coil to verify they are being powered OK.

 

Pickup Coil: This triggers the Ignitor to fire, so it could easily be your problem. Only check is to unplug it and use ohm meter to check for approximately 200 ohms resistance.

 

Ignitor: This is the electronic ignition module, so it is the big kahuna in this problem - if all the other items check out OK, then this is the thing that is killing you.

 

Goose

Edited August 6, 2009 by V7Goose
Added information about the Emergency Stop Swich

[Sleeperhawk]

this may be what your looking for

 

Emergency Ignition Switch Repair - VentureRider.Org

 

This definitely sounds like the switch going out, like mine did over time. Intermittenant, then finally nothing, new switch. Easy enough to check, remove gas tank, about a 10 or 12 guage wire, and go to the above link, follow the directions. Did this to Riderduke's bike, good enough to get home and put in new switch.

[V7Goose]

This definitely sounds like the switch going out, like mine did over time. Intermittenant, then finally nothing, new switch. Easy enough to check, remove gas tank, about a 10 or 12 guage wire, and go to the above link, follow the directions. Did this to Riderduke's bike, good enough to get home and put in new switch.

Sleeperhawk, if his bike cranks, it cannot be the part of the ignition switch you are thinking about (the two large wires). But it COULD be the other section that just uses small wires to pass a ground to the Ignitor (see my post above).

Goose

[BuddyRich]

Like Squeeze said. First thing to do is isolate if its electrical or fuel. If no spark then its electrical. But since its a sudden shutdown with no "bad running" prior, I would tend to think its electrical AND affecting all cylinders.

[Sleeperhawk]

Sleeperhawk, if his bike cranks, it cannot be the part of the ignition switch you are thinking about (the two large wires). But it COULD be the other section that just uses small wires to pass a ground to the Ignitor (see my post above).

Goose

 

The other electrical issue I had on the 05 was the relay switch down in front of the fuel filter. Bike would run fine, then sputter and died, but cranked and cranked the final time. This happened 2 years ago at Maintenance day, we hauled it back to Don's and we traced it too this relay switch, unplug it, and found the switch had melted from the inside, Don loaned me his switch, made it home and had a new replaced under warrentry.

[bikenut]

this may be what your looking for

 

Emergency Ignition Switch Repair - VentureRider.Org

 

 

My friends did the same thing and it was the Ignition switch. This is teh first thing to replace or jump to see for sure.

canj be done with a short piece of wire with teh tank off to make sure.

Bikenut:fingers-crossed-emo:thumbsup2:

[jburrell]

As I read through the postings, it sounds to me more like what some of the others have experienced when having issues with the ignition switch going bad.

 

There is a thread with instructions to bypass the switch. It may be worth consideration so you can enjoy the remainder of your trip.

 

The other thought that comes to mind is the TCI (do you have that on the 2nd Gen bikes?)

 

Best of luck on a quick, effective repair.

 

Dave

 

What he said.......

 

Sounds to me like the ignition is bad.

An easy cheep test is to pull the tank and add unplug the wires to the ignition and put a jumper from one side to the other on the back side of the cables and try starting the bike with the key in the on position. If she starts there you go. It would be good to go ahead and follow the tech article on installing this bypassHad. the exact same thing happen to me. See the ignition bypass article in the Second gen tech section. You need to add it just in case. Hope you figure it out but my money is on the switch!!!

 

[Seaking]

well some good news and some time news.. First, many thanks for Goose for the detailed list of checks to do which I provided to the shop this morning...

 

I asked the shop to contact the yammy rep about this problem to get things moving as my buddy and I are now soon going to be time compressed on our schedule if I don't get this bike moving.

 

When we dropped the bike off the first time, I had asked them to change the rear coils on spec only because the rear jugs were cold when the bike shut down on the highway.. (remember, the bike started again after 20 mins or so) They ordered the parts, they arrived the next day and they tested the old ones and found them to be serviceable. Huh dang, well at least I know it's not the rear coils then.. dang.. not warranty items.. I left the bike with them and then got Goose's list and everyone else's suggestions (thanks guys!!).. Armed with this list I went back to the shop this morning and before I could say anything the shop guy informs me that they can't even get spark from the front plugs now.. what?? The rear are firing up nicely but the front plugs won't make adequate spark.. so they're pulling the coils to see if those are good or bad. But turns out they tested good also... what the heck??

 

After I left them with the trouble shooting list, I also suggested he get a hold of the yammy rep asap to get some sort of resolution to this bike problem.. talk about feeling down.. sigh..

 

Later this afternoon we get a call from the shop.. well how about that.. no joke.

 

Turns out the shop talked with the yammy rep and discovered they were measuring the coils incorrectly! oh no.. the rear coils they pulled off were indeed dead.. that last shut down was the straw that broke the coils' back.. so that means the coils I ordered and installed are covered under warranty! yay.. but the front coils now test dead enough to warrant replacement under warranty also.. hence why not making enough spark to fire the bike.. oooh looking promising! Now just waiting for the new coils to arrive tomorrow, be installed and fire the bike up to see if THAT all fixes it.. if it doesn't... well.. we have an alternate plan in place already.. however, 4 new coils covered under warranty and all I have to pay is the expedited shipping costs.. which isn't too shabby seeing how I'm on the road AND not thinking I had warranty in the first place..

 

So turns out for sure that yes, 4 coils CAN go bad at once.. the 2 rear coils lingered long enough to damage the front ones..

 

However, we may still be surprised with another problem that Goose listed, ignition module, a switch or as others suggested..

 

We won't know until tomorrow.. sigh.. nothing to do until then but go back to WallyMart to watch the babes walk by..

 

Thanks to all for your assistance.. I'll let you know how it turns out..

 

A HUGE thanks to Skydoc_17 fand his missus for their hospitality and sense of humour for putting up with a couple of Canucks these past days

 

Cheers

[Seaking]

This definitely sounds like the switch going out, like mine did over time. Intermittenant, then finally nothing, new switch. Easy enough to check, remove gas tank, about a 10 or 12 guage wire, and go to the above link, follow the directions. Did this to Riderduke's bike, good enough to get home and put in new switch.

 

If I understand properly, this fix you suggest is only viable if you can't get the starter to turn over? My problem is that the bike will turn over no problem but won't fire up anymore (no spark).. However, my previous post lists what's being done right now while we're waiting..

 

Thanks for the info though, certainly worth holding on to just in case.

 

Cheers

[FuzzyRSTD]

I have been keeping up with your bike problem Seaking and was wondering if you got going and what was the problem, the coils or switch ? Good Luck and hope the best and a safe ride for youall.

[Seaking]

I have been keeping up with your bike problem Seaking and was wondering if you got going and what was the problem, the coils or switch ? Good Luck and hope the best and a safe ride for youall.

 

Hi Fuzzy, it was discovered earlier today that after all the run around that all 4 coils were bad.. the rear two were hard dead and the two front not too far behind them so the rep authorized the warranty replacement of all four.. The tech rep told the shop tech how to properly test the coils and that's how it was determined that they were dead.. the rear two most likely put such a load on the front ones as to fry them also..

 

Now, we're not sure if THAT will fix the problem as they haven't yet received the front coils but I should hope that by supper time tomorrow we will know what's the what what..

 

What I am hoping for is that there isn't another underlying issue causing the coils to die out like that..

 

I'll let you know how it goes..

 

Cheers M8

[bongobobny]

Ask Earl to tell you the story of his buddy's wife from Africa...

[V7Goose]

It ain't the coils, but don't argue with them over it - as long as they want to say they are bad, it helps them save face and you get them for free! When they finally do find the real problem, just be sure to tell them how thankful you are that they also discovered all those bad coils, and maybe that was what caused the other problem! That should keep them from changing their minds about the warranty coverage for them.

 

Like I told you in the PM, I'm betting it is either the non-power half of the ignition switch (those blue/yellow and blue/black wires) or a bad ignitor. Hope they find it quick for you!

Goose

[Sleeperhawk]

If I understand properly, this fix you suggest is only viable if you can't get the starter to turn over? My problem is that the bike will turn over no problem but won't fire up anymore (no spark).. However, my previous post lists what's being done right now while we're waiting..

 

Thanks for the info though, certainly worth holding on to just in case.

 

Cheers

 

 

Mine would crank but would not fire up. Then at Freebirds we traced it to the starter/relay switch (down by the fuel filter). Replaced under warranty

 

When the ignition switch went out later, would not turn over.

 

2 different electrical issues on my 05

[Seaking]

Ask Earl to tell you the story of his buddy's wife from Africa...

 

bwa'ahaha.. now THAT was an awesome story =)

[V7Goose]

Just an update for anyone tracking this - I heard from Seaking a while ago - they finally got all four coils changed, and it didn't fix the problem (no surprise there). I'm actually typing this more as a recap for Seaking when he gets back on here, since we were both on cell phones and had a difficult time hearing each other.

 

The shop claimed they had spark now, but the bike still would not start. I don't believe they actually have spark at all, but that is critical to knowing where to go from here. If they can actually show Seaking a sparking plug, that would eliminate all of the other things I said to check and prove the problem has to be fuel (actually, lack of fuel). I suppose it is slightly possible that all the fruitless cranking over the past few days has fouled the plugs beyond all hope, but that seems pretty unlikely too.

 

So I told him that if they really have spark, they need to open a float drain valve to see if there is really any gas in there. But I believe they are just saving face by claiming they have spark, and the problem is still a dead ignition. I couldn't tell from what he said on the phone, but it didn't sound like they actually have checked the things I listed way back in post #7, so we may still be at square one after waiting several days to change good coils. My best advice at this point is to actually check each of the items from the above post and let me know the results. I am virtually certain it is an electrical problem that has killed the spark in all cylinders, but it is very easy to make mistakes when trying to troubleshoot without real information or being able to actually touch the bike!

Goose

[V7Goose]

Mine would crank but would not fire up. Then at Freebirds we traced it to the starter/relay switch (down by the fuel filter). Replaced under warranty

 

When the ignition switch went out later, would not turn over.

 

2 different electrical issues on my 05

Sleeperhawk, this intrigues me, since I cannot find anything in the SCR relay that would cause that problem other than the fuel pump not working (the SCR has a seperate fuel pump relay in it). Do you know if your problem with that bad relay was the fuel pump not running, or was it lack of spark?

 

I dismissed the SCR as a possible problem for Seaking since everything he posted sounded like a sudden engine stop without any missing or faultering that would have been very noticeable from the carbs running dry.

Goose

[Seaking]

just a quick update, we're still dead in the water and now trailering the bike up to another city with a larger dealership to get the bike fixed.. I left Goose a PM about the specifics, and wish to thank Goose for all his assistance and the updates.. I can only tell you one thing.. when this bike finally gets fixed, the fix will be one for the books. There is something more to this than what the books will lead you to.. Trouble shooting guides can only take you so fare.

 

signal lights flashing fast while the bulbs are good, this happened just after the bike died the other day but came back to normal flashing speed.. but now constantly fast flashing with all 4 good bulbs.. The brake light dims a lot when the signal flashes.. the 4way hazard lights seem to be normal I think..

 

Does this have ANYTHING to do with the intial problem? Maybe, dunno, who knows. We'll hopefully have this all figured by monday!!

 

Stay tuned for more news!

 

thanks to all who are following..

[V7Goose]

This is liable to be a bit long and disorganized - I'm just going to "talk" through it in a stream of consciousness type way - sometimes that helps me see new things.

 

First of all, I initially dismissed any thoughts of the signaling system being part of the problem. This bike has a number of self diagnostics, but none in the signaling system that I know of other than the fast-flash for a dead bulb. The unknown part for me here is that the signaling system is computerized, so it is not easy to diagnose without a detailed understanding of the computer and its internal programming. I guess it could be possible that a defective signal computer could somehow be causing a problem with the ignitor, but frankly, I can't really imagine how. I'll note at this point that I have NOT yet gone back to the schematic to examine it from this point of view. I think it is more likely that a bad ignitor could be somehow affecting the signaling computer than the other way around. I think I would just pull the signaling fuse and try to start the bike that way. It does seem possible that we could have a bad wire or plug somewhere that provides either a 12V or ground to BOTH the signal computer and the ignitor, which could be causing both problems.

 

Now let's get back to the engine not running. For the engine to run, all we need is compression, fuel in anything close to a reasonable mix, and spark at the right time. And to diagnose this bike, we must remember that it was running perfectly except for a couple of random and sudden engine stops. And since it ran perfectly again after several of those incidents, that virtually proves the compression remains good, along with the cams and valve timing. So I will now briefly focus on the fuel issue.

 

For this, we can be very thankful this engine is still carbureted, AND that it has four separate carbs. The beauty of our carburetor is that there are no electronic controls that can affect its basic operation. This means that as long as the float bowls are full and the piston and intake valve are operating normally, it MUST be inducing the same amount of fuel into the cylinder now that it was a couple of days ago. The only exception to this would be if the internal passages had somehow become suddenly and totally blocked. So that is why we are happy to have four carbs now - there is absolutely zero chance that all four of the carbs could have become totally blocked at the same instant (and even less chance that this could have happened several times, then magically fixed itself!). Here we must remember that this bike will run on two cylinders, so anything that is wrong MUST be affecting at least three of them. In addition, there was no indication of faltering or misfiring at any time that would have been characteristic of a fuel problem. So I must conclude that the carbs themselves are fine.

 

But there is one test that I would do now before I completely dismiss the fuel issue: Open the drain valve on one carb and completely drain it, catching the fuel in a small jar or something so we can see how much comes out. Now close the drain valve and turn on the key until the fuel pump stops clicking. Finally, re-drain the same carb and verify the amount of fuel that we get is about the same as the first time. If so, I would completely ignor the fuel issue for the rest of the troubleshooting.

 

And this brings us back to the spark. In my not so humble opinion, THIS MUST BE THE PROBLEM. In a PM, Seaking stresses that the shop assures him they "have 4 solid blue sparks on 4 plugs." Frankly, I do not believe this, and I won't believe it until Seaking tells me he has seen the spark himself. So if I am convinced the problem remains with lack of spark, let's walk through all the things I can think of that might affect it.

 

It cannot be the 'usual' ignition switch failure that many people have experienced, since the bike still has normal power and cranks. But as I have documented several times above, the ignition switch as a second section that is not power related - it simply passes a ground to the ignitor when the key is on. I do not know what specifically we would see if that ground was missing (from a bad switch), but it is reasonable to assume the ignitor would not fire. Seaking says the shop tested the switch with an ohm meter as I instructed, and it was good. But if I don't believe them about the spark, I'm not inclined to believe anything else either.

 

It cannot be the Kill switch, since that would stop the bike from cranking.

 

It COULD be the emergency stop or "rollover" switch, but if it was bad, the check engine light should flash 9 times when the key if first turned on.

 

It cannot be the coils for two reasons - first, NOTHING would have caused all four of them to fail at the same instant, then start working again, then fail simultaneously again, etc. etc. Yes, a fault in the 12V supply to the coils could have easily done this, but that is not bad coils, it is a bad wire. And secondly, we now have four brand new coils in this bike!

 

It COULD be the pickup coil, since that is what signals the ignitor that the engine is in the correct position to fire the plugs. I have no idea if that coil has been properly checked or not.

 

Besides the presence of a spark, it must happen at the correct time in the compression stroke. On most older engines, this is controlled by a mechanical advance unit that effectively changes the point when the pickup coil (or points) cause the spark. But our pickup coil is mounted in a fixed position and the timing cannot be changed - all this is done electronically inside the computerized ignition module (the Ignitor). So if the spark is really happening, but it is at such a wrong time that it cannot fire the engine, either the pickup coil has come loose (hard to imagine that we could be getting any spark at all if that happened) or the Ignitor is bad.

 

So now we are left with the Ignitor. This computerized electronic ignition module has a lot of different inputs and outputs that can affect if it works at all, and what else works on the bike (such as the grounds from the neutral switch, the side stand switch, the emergency stop switch and the ignition switch, the power to energize the fuel pump relay, the throttle position sensor, etc.), and I won't pretend to fully understand the interaction of all of these; it is just not documented. I have not spent time dwelling on things like the neutral switch or side stand switch since those would also prevent the bike from cranking. To me, most of the evidence seems to point to the Ignitor as the culprit here. At this point, I'd look to find one from a working bike to sub in. If the bike still doesn't start, then I'd go back to checking each and every connection to the Ignitor plug in an attempt to find a bad wire or missing signal.

 

I doubt if any of that will be much help, since I think I already covered it all before, but it is all I can come up with at this time. I hope the new shop has a competent mechanic who can quickly find the problem!

Goose