Relay??

[Yammer Dan]

OK I can turn a wrench but I am a electrical Idiot!!!!

 

When I install driving lights on my 85 do I need a relay??

 

Why and what does it do?? Where does it go?? Was planning on wiring directly to battery thru a fuse to a switch.

 

Horns I have came with relay maybe they will help me to understand.

[MikeC]

A relay allows a small amount of current passing through the switch to operate the relay, which passes a larger amount of current for the lights themselves. It keeps the switch from getting hot.

 

Other than that, I'm a complete electrical idiot also!

[MikeC]

Oh, yeah... the relay for my lights is zip-tied to the bike frame, left side behind the fairing.

[BuddyRich]

That's about it. You'll want the relay to carry the load. Switches aren't made to carry hi amps. The basic 4 pin relay is all you need. Take a fused 14 gauge wire and run it to the relay from the battery. Connect it to pin 30. Then take a wire from pin 87 to the lights. Next

get a wire and ground it. plug it into pin 86. Now tak a wire and run it from pin 85 to your switch. Then on the other side of the switch run that to a hot wire, I use the front running lamps. This wire does not need to be 14 gauge, it can be 18. The wiring diagram is on the relay. the pins will have numbers or be arranged according to the diagram

 

http://i.s.shopwiki.com/i/data/0x0/8/150/314/aHR0cDovL2VwLnlpbWcuY29tL2NhL0kvY2xhc3NpY2dhcmFnZV8yMDU4XzExNzM2NDAzNA====.jpg

[Yammer Dan]

That's about it. You'll want the relay to carry the load. Switches aren't made to carry hi amps. The basic 4 pin relay is all you need. Take a fused 14 gauge wire and run it to the relay from the battery. Connect it to pin 30. Then take a wire from pin 87 to the lights. Next

get a wire and ground it. plug it into pin 86. Now tak a wire and run it from pin 85 to your switch. Then on the other side of the switch run that to a hot wire, I use the front running lamps. This wire does not need to be 14 gauge, it can be 18. The wiring diagram is on the relay. the pins will have numbers or be arranged according to the diagram

 

http://i.s.shopwiki.com/i/data/0x0/8/150/314/aHR0cDovL2VwLnlpbWcuY29tL2NhL0kvY2xhc3NpY2dhcmFnZV8yMDU4XzExNzM2NDAzNA====.jpg

 

I think I can manage that Buddy. Lights didn't come with relay. Wheredo I get and what do I ask for?? Looks like I'm going to need bigger fuse box for this one when I get done. Another learning experience!!! Thanks

[saddlebum]

http://i.s.shopwiki.com/i/data/0x0/8/150/314/aHR0cDovL2VwLnlpbWcuY29tL2NhL0kvY2xhc3NpY2dhcmFnZV8yMDU4XzExNzM2NDAzNA====.jpgYou can get these relays from just about any car parts dealer. also they are comonly used on medium and heavy duty trucks so so you can also get them at most any truck dealer pin 30 goes to your fuse 87 goes to your light.( BTW some of thse relays also have an additional terminal numbered 87a you can still use the relay just ignore the extra terminal) these wire's should be at least 16 gauge although I prefer 14 gauge sometimes even 12 gauge. (BTW check the amp rating on the relays they come in various sizes, you can't go too big but you can go too small). Now pins 85 and 86 are your control inputs 18 gauge wire is fine here as the load is small. ground one (does not matter which one) and supply 12 volts to the the other either from a switch or from the headlight hot wire so it switches on and off with your headlight..If you connect 85 to your head light feed instead of a switch, and instead of running 86 directly to ground, put a switch in the ground wire, you can overide the light if for some reason you decide you only want the headlight on by itself. The nice thing about tapping into your headlight wire is if you had say road lights and you want them only to come on with your high beam you tap one of the control wires into your high beam wire and the lights will go off and on with your high beam. If you have fog lights and road lights on your bike use the relay with the extra pin 87a. connect your road lights to 87 , your fog lights to 87a . 85 to ground and 86 to your high beam. this way your road lights come on when you switch to high beam and your fog lights come on when you switch to low beam automaticlly.But with this type of set up you also have to add a second relay to turn the power to pin 30 off and on with the ignition switch. Otherwise without it when you switch the bike off your fog lights will stay on or if on high beam at the time it will switch to fog lights when you turn off the ignition and again the fog lights will stay on.

 

Another variation is to use 2 relays connect 86 from one relay to your high beam wire,and 87 to your road lights. Connect 86 from the other relay to your low beam wire, and your fog lights to 87 of this relay (notice 87a is not used at all here). Now jumper the two 85 terminals together and connect to a switch ground the other terminal of the switch. Road lights now come on with your high beams, fog lights switch on with your low beams. If you want to overide and turn of your additional lights just flip the one switch.

Edited July 23, 2009 by saddlebum

[ArticusMedicus]

Dan, the technical and scientific purpose of a relay, is to give guys like you and I a headache.

 

 

And for me (can't speak for you here) it provides another opportunity for me to prove to myself just how dumb I can be.

 

Once again, the relay is working as intended?

[camos]

... If you have fog lights and road lights on your bike use the relay with the extra pin 87a. connect your road lights to 87 , your fog lights to 87a . 85 to ground and 86 to your high beam. this way your road lights come on when you switch to high beam and your fog lights come on when you switch to low beam automaticlly.

What does 87a do? I have fog lights on my Virago wired through a switched relay as you also described. On the VR there are driving lights but I'd like to add fog lights switced to work with the Hi/Lo beams. If the Hi beam powers the relay for the Hi beam driving light combo, what powers the relay for the Lo beam fog light combo?

[V7Goose]

What does 87a do? I have fog lights on my Virago wired through a switched relay as you also described. On the VR there are driving lights but I'd like to add fog lights switced to work with the Hi/Lo beams. If the Hi beam powers the relay for the Hi beam driving light combo, what powers the relay for the Lo beam fog light combo?

Pins 87 and 87a are just connected together inside the relay - it allows you to connect two lights without having to splice the wires together.

 

If you are going to hook up two sets of lights, you need two relays. One 14 AWG wire from the battery to the fairing would be sufficient for power to both relays together (use a 20A inline fuse on that wire at the battery). The wires from the relay to the individual lights will be fine at 16 AWG.

 

Note that a 20A fuse is not really needed here - a 10A would be fine for the lights. But I specified a 20A fuse because that is the max that would be safe with those wire sizes - a 14 AWG wire can handle 20A up to 15 feet, and 16 gauge wires can handle 20A up to 10 feet.

Goose

Edited July 22, 2009 by V7Goose

[V7Goose]

http://i.s.shopwiki.com/i/data/0x0/8/150/314/aHR0cDovL2VwLnlpbWcuY29tL2NhL0kvY2xhc3NpY2dhcmFnZV8yMDU4XzExNzM2NDAzNA====.jpgYou can get these relays from just about any car parts dealer. also they are comonly used on medium and heavy duty trucks so so you can also get them at most any truck dealer pin 30 goes to your fuse 87 goes to your light.( BTW some of thse relays also have an additional terminal numbered 87a you can still use the relay just ignore the extra terminal) these wire's should be at least 16 gauge although I prefer 14 gauge sometimes even 12 gauge. (BTW check the amp rating on the relays they come in various sizes, you can't go too big but you can go too small). Now pins 85 and 86 are your control inputs 18 gauge wire is fine here as the load is small. ground one (does not matter which one) and supply 12 volts to the the other either from a switch or from the headlight hot wire so it switches on and off with your headlight..If you connect 85 to your head light feed instead of a switch, and instead of running 86 directly to ground, put a switch in the ground wire, you can overide the light if for some reason you decide you only want the headlight on by itself. The nice thing about tapping into your headlight wire is if you had say road lights and you want them only to come on with your high beam you tap one of the control wires into your high beam wire and the lights will go off and on with your high beam. If you have fog lights and road lights on your bike use the relay with the extra pin 87a. connect your road lights to 87 , your fog lights to 87a . 85 to ground and 86 to your high beam. this way your road lights come on when you switch to high beam and your fog lights come on when you switch to low beam automaticlly. Another variation is to use 2 relays connect 86 from one relay to your high beam wire,and 87 to your road lights. Connect 86 from the other relay to your low beam wire, and your fog lights to 87 of this relay (notice 87a is not used at all here). Now jumper the two 85 terminals together and connect to a switch ground the other terminal of the switch. Road lights now come on with your high beams, fog lights switch on with your low beams. If you want to overide and turn of your additional lights just flip the one switch.

The part I highlighted in red is not correct. On every one of these relays I have used, 87 and 87a are the SAME connection - that relay is simply designed to allow you to connect two lights without having to splice the wires together.

 

Just or reference, here is an article on the MTA site that accurately shows the diagram for the stock horns on our bike (figure 1), and aftermarket horns connected through one of these relays (figure 2).

http://www.mtariders.com/v3/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=316:after-market-horns--march-1991-page-20&catid=82:miscellaneous&Itemid=94

As I am sure everyone already understands, a relay works the same way no matter if it is used for horns or lights.

Goose

Edited July 22, 2009 by V7Goose
Forgot to include the link

[Redneck]

If you have room for a good quality heavy switch you don't need a relay. A good quality toggle switch will handle 30 amps. unless you need to use a lite duty switch don't use a relay.

 

[Condor]

OK I can turn a wrench but I am a electrical Idiot!!!!

 

When I install driving lights on my 85 do I need a relay??

 

Why and what does it do?? Where does it go?? Was planning on wiring directly to battery thru a fuse to a switch.

 

Horns I have came with relay maybe they will help me to understand.

 

 

Think of it this way Dan. You're turning on the driving lights electrically instead of manually. Most direct wired inline michro-switches won't handle a lot of amps and will burn out. A relay is nothing more than a big switch that will take the heavy amps without a toggle, and only needs a small amount of current from another michro switch to be turned on.

[V7Goose]

If you have room for a good quality heavy switch you don't need a relay. A good quality toggle switch will handle 30 amps. unless you need to use a lite duty switch don't use a relay.

I think this is very bad advice, for several reasons. It may be safe, but it has other problems.

 

First, if you want your new lights to go on/off automatically with your existing lights, then a relay is the only reasonable option to not add excessive load to the stock wires.

 

Second, for any accessory that needs significant amounts of current (that's the only reason we are talking about a relay at all), you must use larger wires to provide the power. Depending on where you want to mount a switch, it often makes no sense to run the larger wire all the way to the switch, then back to the load. By using a relay, you only need very small wire, typically 18 gauge, between the switch and the relay. This can be very important if you are routing wires in tight spots or along handlebars.

 

Third, a 30A switch is almost always MUCH larger than what you need to activate the relay (where any mini-switch will be just fine). Again, this can make a big difference in where you can mount the switch and what the finished job looks like.

Goose

[Guest seuadr]

The part I highlighted in red is not correct. On every one of these relays I have used, 87 and 87a are the SAME connection - that relay is simply designed to allow you to connect two lights without having to splice the wires together.

 

Just or reference, here is an article on the MTA site that accurately shows the diagram for the stock horns on our bike (figure 1), and aftermarket horns connected through one of these relays (figure 2). As I am sure everyone already understands, a relay works the same way no matter if it is used for horns or lights.

Goose

 

ya, 87a is the second double throw connector. if you want to do what is described in the text there, you need a relay with a normally open contact and a normally closed contact. you'd connect the fog lights to the normally closed contact, and they would recieve power while the switch for the drive lights are off. when you turn the switch on, it would flip to the normally open contact and then your drive lights would come on.

[BuddyRich]

Actually on the 5 pin relays you have to use 87. The 5 pin relay toggles the power between pin 87 and 87A. 87A is marked N.C (Normally closed) and 87 is marked N.O.(Normally Open).

When current is applied to the induction coil a magnet field is created. This field pulls the switch from sitting on 87 to 87A. I'll find a diagram and put it up here. The diagram is for a SPDT.Single Pole Double Throw. the 4 pin relays are SPST or single pole single throw.

 

http://www.shoppalstores.com/clreynolds/image//pagedesignimages/relaydiagram.gif http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31yYn6DtrdL._SS400_.jpg

 

Edited July 22, 2009 by BuddyRich

[V7Goose]

Actually on the 5 pin relays you have to use 87. The 5 pin relay toggles the power between pin 87 and 87A. 87A is marked N.C (Normally closed) and 87 is marked N.O.(Normally Open).

When current is applied to the induction coil a magnet field is created. This field pulls the switch from sitting on 87 to 87A. I'll find a diagram and put it up here. The diagram is for a SPDT.Single Pole Double Throw. the 4 pin relays are SPST or single pole single throw.

 

http://www.shoppalstores.com/clreynolds/image//pagedesignimages/relaydiagram.gif

BuddyRich, what you describe is true for a relay that matches the diagram you provide, but it is NOT true for the vast majority, if not all, of the commonly available black plastic relays you find in blister-packs at the auto parts store next to the fog lights.

 

I am currently holding a DF005 "Heavy Duty Relay". The diagram on the top of the relay shows no N.C. contact, and two N.O. contacts tied together, both numbered 87. But on the bottom of the relay, the middle contact is clearly marked 87a, and I have used an ohm meter to verify it is tied together with 87. The package does not show a diagram, but they clearly show a picture with both 87 and 87a connected to the same line that is labeled "Power to Lamps (87 & 87)".

 

So the proper answer for anyone is to check the diagram shown on the relay (most have them) to verify what contacts do what. In every one of these I have used for over 40 years, I have never encountered a 5-pin version where 87 and 87a were not tied together. Not saying it doesn't exist - just that it can't be very common.

Goose

[Yammer Dan]

I certainly want to do it this way but with all that I have to do in short amount of time from what I get it will not hurt anything to go to Vogel and back with them just wired on a toggel switch? I have a unbelivable list that I need to do and have been away from this thing for so long it is going to really test my skills. Little list includes:

 

1 Clutch springs, pressure plate and bleed

2 Ball studs for side covers

3 Bleed all brakes

4 Color Tune

5 Sync Carbs

6 Check all brake pads

7 Grease Speedo and Tach

8 Grease throttle cable

9 Plug Wires

10 Seat staples

11 Oil change

12 Exhaust chamber

13 Side stand switch

14 Driving lights

15 Horns

16 Clean rectifer connections

17 Change rear gears

 

All of this is not really necesary right now but it has been a long time since I have been able to take care of my bike as I feel I should. Leg is never going to get any better just got to learn to deal with it.

[Guest seuadr]

 

So the proper answer for anyone is to check the diagram shown on the relay (most have them) to verify what contacts do what. In every one of these I have used for over 40 years, I have never encountered a 5-pin version where 87 and 87a were not tied together. Not saying it doesn't exist - just that it can't be very common.

Goose

bosch 5 pins have a n.c. and n.o. contact and are labled 87a/87 but i know what you mean, i've got 2 or 3 5 pins that do not. of course, i pick up most of mine second hand at the junk yard. bosch relays are fantastic and you can usually get a handful for a dollar or two. last forever.

[rod]

You need to check the diagram on what ever relay you get for 87 and 87a. Relays come with NO (normally open) or NC (normally closed). You want the normally open terminal for your accessories. Rod

[saddlebum]

Pins 87 and 87a are just connected together inside the relay - it allows you to connect two lights without having to splice the wires together.

 

Sorry goose your wrong on this one on a relay with 87a and 87 pins pin 30 supplys power to 87a when the relay is not powered up or say switched off. and pin 30 supplys power to 87 when the relay is switched on so in other words you can switch back and forth between 2 devices such as fog lights and road lights simply by switching the relay off or on.

 

 

What does 87a do? I have fog lights on my Virago wired through a switched relay as you also described. On the VR there are driving lights but I'd like to add fog lights switced to work with the Hi/Lo beams. If the Hi beam powers the relay for the Hi beam driving light combo, what powers the relay for the Lo beam fog light combo?

when you switch your high beams off it cuts the control power to the relay there by diverting the power at pin 30 from you road lights (connected to pin 87) to your fog lights ( connected at pin 87a)

 

if you look at the sketch eliminate the switch in the first drawing and simply connect a wire from pin 85 to your high beam wire as your high beam is switched off and on the relay switches back and forth between your fog light and road light. But with this type of set up you also have to add a second relay to turn the power to pin 30 off and on with the ignition switch. Otherwise without it when you switch the bike off your fog lights will stay on or if on high beam at the time it will switch to fog lights when you turn off the ignition and again the fog lights will stay on or use the alternative variation of using one relay for the fog lights with pin 85 connected to your low beam , and one relay for your road lights with pin 85 connected to your high beam and ignore pin 87a if your relays have it.

 

One word of cautian make sure you do not use what is called a latching relay this type of relay turns on with a simple push button but stays on until the main power is turned off. In appearance these relays look just like the other one but are different internally.

 

http://www.classictruckshop.com/clubs/earlyburbs/projects/bosch/circuits.jpg

 

http://www.classictruckshop.com/clubs/earlyburbs/projects/bosch/relay.jpg

Edited July 23, 2009 by saddlebum

[saddlebum]

If you have room for a good quality heavy switch you don't need a relay. A good quality toggle switch will handle 30 amps. unless you need to use a lite duty switch don't use a relay.

 

you mean like this condor

 

http://www.1728.com/knifeswt.gif:think::think::think:

[Yammer Dan]

How do I save a thread. I'm going to need this one when I get to lights.

[Guest tx2sturgis]

How do I save a thread. I'm going to need this one when I get to lights.

 

Click THREAD TOOLS and then SUBSCRIBE.

 

Thats one way.

 

Or just print the whole thing out...

 

BTW...its a LOT easier to work with these relays if you buy the corresponding relay socket...just a couple bucks and makes it much easier, since they come with 12-18 inch flying leads already attached, and if the relay ever goes bad, its a simple plug in to replace it.

 

Youre Welcome.

 

[saddlebum]

or just click on favourites while on this thread and then click on add to favourites

[Riderduke]

Well until post #6 i thought I had the Idea of a relay then...... I'll wait till I can get with someone One on One. I was gonna ask more about this topic but now i'm Gonna wait.