GeorgeS Posted July 20, 2009 #26 Posted July 20, 2009 A few years back, I went thru 2, Yuasa, " Sealed, Lead Acid " batteries on the Venture. One lasted 12 months, the second 14 months. I pried the seal of them after they failed, and water level was about an inch below the plates , both times. I also went thru 2 Yuasa , " Sealed Lead Acid " batteries on my Busa. Both lasted about 12 months. Anyway, those 4 were my Last , Yuasa, Sealed lead Acid batteries !!!! Have Odyessy in both bikes, now, 3 years service comeing up on them, no problems as yet.
V7Goose Posted July 20, 2009 #27 Posted July 20, 2009 A few years back, I went thru 2, Yuasa, " Sealed, Lead Acid " batteries on the Venture. One lasted 12 months, the second 14 months. I pried the seal of them after they failed, and water level was about an inch below the plates , both times. I also went thru 2 Yuasa , " Sealed Lead Acid " batteries on my Busa. Both lasted about 12 months. Anyway, those 4 were my Last , Yuasa, Sealed lead Acid batteries !!!! Have Odyessy in both bikes, now, 3 years service comeing up on them, no problems as yet. I am not going to speculate why you had such problems, but I won't condemn Yuasa for it, at least not without better information. My stock Yuasa battery went 4 1/2 years without problems, then I swapped it for one out of a wrecked 2007 just 'cause the other battery was two years younger, not because I needed to. There WAS a period, back about 10 or 15 years ago IIRC, when Yuasa batteries had a period of "sudden 'SNAP' failure." This was a problem when the rider would hear a loud "SNAP" or POP, and the battery would then be totally dead. I don't remember exactly when this was, but it has been corrected for many years now. Frankly, when looking for a replacement battery, I would prefer a Yuasa, but that's just my preference. Goose
LilBeaver Posted July 20, 2009 Author #28 Posted July 20, 2009 (edited) I figured I would post an update... The battery was fully charged so I let it chill for a few hours while I tried to get some sleep. Installed it this morning (along with a new headlamp) the lights function properly (except for the driving lamps, but I have not checked the bulbs or the fuse). The radio comes on and I do not get that gd awful noise within the headset when the radio is set on speakers or headset. The CB turns on, but I have not done anything but turn it on and off in the garage. When I turn the CB off there is a loud pop that comes through the speakers (but it thinks that it is receiving something). Turning the squelch all the way up, it stops receiving, I turn off the CB and there is no pop. The other thing that seemed a little fishy with the radio is the volume knob was not functioning properly. It would turn up 1 level per click but turning the volume back down was quite sparatic (meaning that sometimes it would go down while turning and sometimes it wouldn't). Also with the radio, the volume seems to be significantly quieter than usual. I pushed the starter button, the bike cranked and started right up. I immediately shut it off because I want to get through the rest of the electrical connections before I do anything else with the bike. I am going to run out and pick up a relay, some wire and connectors so that I can wire up the driving lights 'properly'. While rewiring those, I will check the inline fuse as well as the bulbs (I suspect it is just the bulbs since the headlamp burnt out yesterday and it is on the same circuit). For the radio, I will double check the connections, look for any sign of arcing or discoloration in the harness as well as along the wires that feed to the radio then probably be back on here looking for other things to look at to try to troubleshoot that too... But one step at a time. Thanks again for all of your support, I will definitly keep you posted and have more questions as I get through all of this. Rick M. Edited July 20, 2009 by LilBeaver updating the information regarding the radio and CB
LilBeaver Posted July 20, 2009 Author #29 Posted July 20, 2009 Oh yea, when I flip the cruise switch the lights come on momentarily then the "on" light stays on, like it had always done in the past. Also the dash lamps seem to be noticeably brighter, BUT I really do not know if they actually are or if it is just my imagination...
V7Goose Posted July 20, 2009 #30 Posted July 20, 2009 I am not surprised that your new battery is working, or that the bike started. But you need to check the charging voltage before you do much else. Actually, the FIRST thing I would do is disconnect the reg/rec and look closely at the plug to see if there is any sign of overheating. Then properly re-connect and re-attach that unit and start the bike so you can check the voltage at the battery terminals. If the voltage doesn't look right, don't run the engine any more until you can replace the regulator/rectifier. Goose
LilBeaver Posted July 20, 2009 Author #31 Posted July 20, 2009 I am not surprised either. I just wanted to make sure it would turn over and it started. I shut it off within (literally) 1-2 seconds. Lunch time now. I have taken off the regulator/rectifier and looked at the connections. There is no discoloration at all. My plan after lunch is to disassemble the plug that the r/r plugs into to see if I can see anything that would indicate a poor connection, etc. I have been thinking about it and I am going to see if I can find a wiring diagram for this particular rectifier/regulator unit. I have access to some high quality oscilloscopes and i was thinking that I ought to be able to determine functionality (or lack there of) BUT I need to know the particulars about the circuity (which I realize I may not be able to come across). Granted I can probably run the bike for a few minutes to check the charging system since it ran for the 2.5ish hours yesterday it took me to get home... My presumption is that any damage that would be done has already been done by now... Thanks again for the input, it is greatly appreciated! - Rick M. I am not surprised that your new battery is working, or that the bike started. But you need to check the charging voltage before you do much else. Actually, the FIRST thing I would do is disconnect the reg/rec and look closely at the plug to see if there is any sign of overheating. Then properly re-connect and re-attach that unit and start the bike so you can check the voltage at the battery terminals. If the voltage doesn't look right, don't run the engine any more until you can replace the regulator/rectifier. Goose
V7Goose Posted July 20, 2009 #32 Posted July 20, 2009 I am not surprised either. I just wanted to make sure it would turn over and it started. I shut it off within (literally) 1-2 seconds. Lunch time now. I have taken off the regulator/rectifier and looked at the connections. There is no discoloration at all. My plan after lunch is to disassemble the plug that the r/r plugs into to see if I can see anything that would indicate a poor connection, etc. I have been thinking about it and I am going to see if I can find a wiring diagram for this particular rectifier/regulator unit. I have access to some high quality oscilloscopes and i was thinking that I ought to be able to determine functionality (or lack there of) BUT I need to know the particulars about the circuity (which I realize I may not be able to come across). Granted I can probably run the bike for a few minutes to check the charging system since it ran for the 2.5ish hours yesterday it took me to get home... My presumption is that any damage that would be done has already been done by now... Thanks again for the input, it is greatly appreciated! - Rick M. It is very common for the pins in the plug for the two big output wires to overheat, so if yours look good with no discoloring of the plastic, then the contacts are good - sounds to me like your luck is holding on this one. Goose
LilBeaver Posted July 21, 2009 Author #33 Posted July 21, 2009 Well, after a mixed day of working on the bike and trying to get enough work done to stay up with where I need to be I have found a few things: 1) Almost all of the wiring harnesses had some dirt on the outside but appeared next to new on the inside, none the less I blew them out, sprayed them with electrical contact cleaner, blew them out again, greased appropriately then reconnected. I found that the radio connector under the passenger seat (the 10?-pin connector) was actually loose. I firmly connected that one and subsequently I have a reliable volume control now but still seems about 1/2 as loud as it was before. 2) The contacts and wiring harness for the regulator/rectifier literally looks brand new. One thing that I did find is that when I went to disconnect it, it just slid off. That is the little release on the wiring harness seemed to not be fully engaged. I do not know whether this is relevant or not, but that is what I found. I firmly reattached it and checked to ensure that the 'locking' mechanism snapped into place; and it did this time. 3) I have looked over all of the wires I can get my hands on, unwrapping them and rewrapping them after inspection and have found none that have worn through the insulation or have sharp bends. Of all that I tested there was continuity within the wire and no unexpected shorts to ground. Obviously I was not able to test all of them so this is mildly inconclusive. (I mostly did this because it was convenient to do while I let the contact cleaner dry.) 4) Only 1 out of 45 dealerships/suppliers that were contacted today claimed to have a regulator/rectifier in stock. Unfortunately the parts guy spent 10 minutes looking for it and could not find it. 5) Last thing I tried to do was check the resitance of the stator. I fought for a while to get the probes on the leads correctly and I could not quite get in there... So I came in to read up on suggestions on how to get to it and may or may not attempt again tonight. I realize that some may see cleaning and inspecting the harnesses and wiring this thoroughly is a waste of time but I figured at this point it could not hurt anything especially since I needed to take the bike apart a little bit to properly wire the driving lamps so another few hours of preventative maintenance could potentially leave me with many more trouble free miles... but we'll see. Summary: Today was very much inconclusive which I view is a good thing. Not finding anything blatantly wrong, discolored, melted, smoking, etc is a little discouraging in that it does not firmly identify an issue but somewhat encouraging to see that it very well could be something as simple as a battery or if it is the regulator/rectifier (which I suspect would have showed some discoloration SOMEWHERE on it or within the harness or contacts if something happened with it). But we'll see. First thing in the morning I am going to go ahead and put the tank back on so that I can start it up and test the charging system (since everything else seems to be checking okay). I wanted to be darn sure that there was not anything else that would potentially fry anything else on the bike before I started it up... As I write this (and look it back over) it sure looks like I have not been very productive today, but, hopefully this thoroughness will pay off in the end... I guess I will stop there for now.
Guest tx2sturgis Posted July 21, 2009 #34 Posted July 21, 2009 Well Rick, I think you should be a military aircraft mechanic, or an engineer working on our new Constellation Space program...you seem THAT thorough! ( theres another short word for it too!) Me? I'da just slapped the new battery in and rode it like I stole it...but then thats me... By the way...you got plans on attending the GiantSide Rally?? http://www.giantsiderally.com
LilBeaver Posted July 21, 2009 Author #35 Posted July 21, 2009 Brian: Ha, well I don't know about either of those... I was unaware of that rally, but I think I will definitely stop by for at least one of the days... I will not camp out there since it is just a few miles from my house, but I would like to stop in and see what it is all about.
Venturous Randy Posted July 21, 2009 #36 Posted July 21, 2009 The contacts and wiring harness for the regulator/rectifier literally looks brand new. One thing that I did find is that when I went to disconnect it, it just slid off. That is the little release on the wiring harness seemed to not be fully engaged. I do not know whether this is relevant or not, but that is what I found. I firmly reattached it and checked to ensure that the 'locking' mechanism snapped into place; and it did this time. Even with the latch undone, there should have been some resistance in pulling it off. You may need to tighten the terminals some to slide back on the spades. That is where the contact will make or break it. RandyA
Dave77459 Posted July 21, 2009 #37 Posted July 21, 2009 By the way...you got plans on attending the GiantSide Rally?? http://www.giantsiderally.com My son is attending Texas Tech, and that is move-in weekend. Will you be there? I'll be in a cage, but surely we can meet? Dave
LilBeaver Posted July 21, 2009 Author #38 Posted July 21, 2009 Oh yea, I did take a small screwdriver and bent the contacts within the terminals on the harness so that they would pinch tighter. Good call though, thanks. Even with the latch undone, there should have been some resistance in pulling it off. You may need to tighten the terminals some to slide back on the spades. That is where the contact will make or break it. RandyA
LilBeaver Posted July 21, 2009 Author #39 Posted July 21, 2009 My son is attending Texas Tech, and that is move-in weekend. Will you be there? I'll be in a cage, but surely we can meet? Dave I should be around. Is this your son's first year?
Dave77459 Posted July 21, 2009 #40 Posted July 21, 2009 I should be around. Is this your son's first year? Yes, he is an incoming freshman. Hard to let him go, but excited for him. Dave
LilBeaver Posted July 22, 2009 Author #41 Posted July 22, 2009 After a looooong day at the office I came home and was able to put some more time in working on the bike. I went ahead and wired the passing lamps properly (fused from the battery to a relay that is activated by a switch and the headlamp switch in the appropriate position). I wired the whole setup with 10 gauge wire and a 30 amp relay, mostly because I had some extra 10 guage wire and connectors laying around. I did find that one of my spotlights is burned out so I will make a trip to tractor supply, wally-world or autozone to find a comperable replacement that is gaurunteed to be less that what yamaha wants for a replacement. After finishing the wiring, I put the tank back on and pulled fuses to electrical components that I would prefer to NOT fry (audio system and cruise control) put the rumpus outside the garage and started it up. Unfortunately I do not have a tachometer so this test was mildly inconclusive but yielded some intreguing results which I will outline below: 1) Turn key to on position (read ~13 volts) 2) Pushed starter button (minimum of 12.5 volts) 3) Immediately checked for any sign of AC voltage - This was passed, no AC voltage present at time of reading (implying that the rectifing circuit is functioning properly at the time of the test) 4) 20 seconds after bike started (reading of ~17 volts) 5) Reved motor while watching meter; (I was unable to get a reliable read while I was changing the engine speed - mostly because I only have two hands) 6) Reved the motor significantly and held for meter to stabilize (read 13.9V on first test) 7) Let motor go back to idle (read 13.6 with a 0.1V fluctuation both up and down) 8) Reved the motor significantly and held, waited for meter to stabilize (read 13.8V) 9) Realized it was 11:30pm - Stopped reving motor 10) Took a long measurement while at idle and read a pretty steady 13.6 V 11) Shut off motor (read 13.1 V with key in on position) 12) Let bike sit for 15 minutes 13) repeated 1-3 with same results 14) Let idle and took measurement (read 16.9V with a 0.2V fluctuation both up and down) 15) After ~30 seconds of idle read steady 17.0V 16) Shut off motor, turned ignition off. So, this 17.0V thing bothers me a little... So I guess I need to sleep on this a little bit and maybe try to track down a tachometer tomorrow... Any comments are welcomed. Thanks again for following along! Rick M.
Guest tx2sturgis Posted July 22, 2009 #42 Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) 4) 20 seconds after bike started (reading of ~17 volts) 14) Let idle and took measurement (read 16.9V with a 0.2V fluctuation both up and down) 15) After ~30 seconds of idle read steady 17.0V 16) Shut off motor, turned ignition off. So, this 17.0V thing bothers me a little... So I guess I need to sleep on this a little bit and maybe try to track down a tachometer tomorrow... Any comments are welcomed. Thanks again for following along! Rick M. 17 volts should bother you a LOT. Its probably the reason you've had several burned out bulbs and erratic radio operation AND some popped caps on the old battery! Yep...I'd say you have a malfunctioning R/R ( maybe due to bad connections or grounding)..I was hoping and maybe even assuming that was not the case, but now I think it is...if you remember I advised on checking the electrics with the new battery installed...and this is why. Your R/R can surge during operation, but normally the battery will 'absorb' this surge and you wont see that on the meter....Tell us EXACTLY where you put the probes for the meter....and...I might suggest that you use an analog meter if you can find one...or a VERY reliable RMS digital meter, making sure the meter case is physically isolated from vibration and the magnetic fields of the bike. Some inexpensive meters can get weird readings just from being in a magnetic field, sitting in the sun, minor AC riding 'on' the DC line, or from a steady vibration...or heat rising off the motor during that 15 minute rest....it all needs to be verified. There is an extremely remote possiblity that you have either a brand new but defective battery, (unlikely as hell since its an Interstate) or your battery connection lugs are failing inside the wire input, ( corrosion) or fractured conductors leading to the battery lugs. It would be a good idea to have 2 meters hooked up for the next test...put one voltmeter across the battery terminals and the 'good' one across another remote point...such as the headlight circuit, the cigarette lighter, or maybe the tailight...I want to VERIFY that the bikes harness is seeing 17 volts...if it actually IS...you need to get it fixed before riding it. A steady or even intermittent 17 volts on the harness can do all sorts of bad things... Edited July 22, 2009 by tx2sturgis
LilBeaver Posted July 22, 2009 Author #43 Posted July 22, 2009 Brian: Thanks for the follow up. I was being facetious with the 'little'. I was using a basic craftsman digital meter. I am not 100% convinced that it was an accurate reading. I was only probing the power leads that attach to the battery. For some of the testing I had the meter sitting on the right passenger floorboard. For the second round of testing I had picked it up and held it (maybe 1 ft from the bike). I have a few really nice meters at the office, tomorrow morning I'll pick a couple up so I can verify what I found tonight. On one hand I was sortof hoping that after cleaning all of the electrical components and installing the new battery I would get appropriate readings. On the other hand, if I can verify this 17 volt business then, despite the , I will be relieved as the source of the problem has likely been isolated to the regulator/rectifier unit. I will definitely go back and check to make sure that the main ground is secured properly (and not corroded), but I took everything apart that I could see, cleaned it and reinstalled, so unless I missed one (which IS possible), I think that I am comfortable ruling out a lose/corroded ground... But I will look again in the morning with fresher eyes... Unfortunately, it looks like I am going to not be able to take the bike on this upcoming trip, since it will take too long to get one of these silly things I wonder if I could talk the local dealership into pulling a regulator out of the crate of a new bike ... Doubtfull but it may be worth a shot.
saddlebum Posted July 22, 2009 #44 Posted July 22, 2009 You have had all kinds of good info here so I will keep this food for thought short. Most allternators are capable of produceing extremely high voltages, I have seen car alternators produce up to 110 volts. The regulator is what keeps this in check. however if for one reason or another. either a bad wire, or faulty regulator. the regulator cannot determine battery condition or system voltage, the alternator will continue to produce excessively high voltage. This tends to blow bulbs and cause battery,s to boil destroying them. Before jumpinng the gun and thinking that a new battery is going to fix your problem check out your charging system after you install the new battery or you may end up destroying another battery (this is assuming that the battery itself is not the cause which it still may be).The fact that you were getting strange noise on you radio I would suspect bad diodes in the regulator.So check it carefully and make sure all your grounds are secure clean and sound.
V7Goose Posted July 22, 2009 #45 Posted July 22, 2009 I hate to keep beating this dead horse, so this may be my last post on the subject unless you actually have a different question. I told you way above that your regulator/rectifier was bad. I told you the test was to check the charging voltage. You did that and found 17V - that is higher than the manual calls for, and it is why you burned out lights and boiled your old battery. Some things about this bike can be complicated, but not this particular issue. Your regulator is bad and must be replaced. End of subject. Goose
Squeeze Posted July 22, 2009 #46 Posted July 22, 2009 I hate to keep beating this dead horse, so this may be my last post on the subject unless you actually have a different question. I told you way above that your regulator/rectifier was bad. I told you the test was to check the charging voltage. You did that and found 17V - that is higher than the manual calls for, and it is why you burned out lights and boiled your old battery. Some things about this bike can be complicated, but not this particular issue. Your regulator is bad and must be replaced. End of subject. Goose Well, I'm not always with Goose on some Issues, but i agree totally.
Guest tx2sturgis Posted July 22, 2009 #47 Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) I agree with Goose and Squeeze, but only if a second meter verifies the 17 volt reading...although I would take the reading of the Craftsman meter if you told me that it has been reliable and that its been used carefully. For all I knew previously, Goose, and Rick, the test may have been performed with a $4 Harbor Freight meter that was dropped and had a cracked LCD screen and frayed test leads. But...with a good Craftsman meter, and the care that was taken in measuring...I'm on the bandwagon....its time for a new regulator/rectifier. You MIGHT look at one of the aftermarket companies..such as RegulatorRectifier.com or Electrosport.com...see if maybe they can overnite ( or 2 day shipping) one out to you...just a thought...it wont be cheap, but it would get there in time for your trip..... Your call of course! http://www.regulatorrectifier.com/catalog/m4/Yamaha/p1032/1996-2001-Yamaha-Star-XVZ1300-ROYAL-STAR-Regulator-Rectifier/product_info.html?osCsid=9803a966b915bda8ca4929d9383cf131 http://www.electrosport.com/street/street-model-products-listing-street_66250.php Edited July 22, 2009 by tx2sturgis
V7Goose Posted July 22, 2009 #48 Posted July 22, 2009 I agree with Goose and Squeeze, but only if a second meter verifies the 17 volt reading...although I would take the reading of the Craftsman meter if you told me that it has been reliable and that its been used carefully. For all I knew previously, Goose, and Rick, the test may have been performed with a $4 Harbor Freight meter that was dropped and had a cracked LCD screen and frayed test leads. But...with a good Craftsman meter, and the care that was taken in measuring...I'm on the bandwagon....its time for a new regulator/rectifier. Actually, I think even a $1.99 HF meter that had been dropped from a moving bike would be fine here. While I understand and would normally applaud your caution, in this case there is just too much corroborating evidence that can only support the diagnosis: First symptom was bright lights and blown bulbs - can only be caused by high voltage. Boiled battery only caused by high voltage or way too long connected to normal charging voltage and excessive current. He already checked and verified the plug and ground for the regulator/rectifier was good. Most importantly, the meter used showed the correct voltage when connected to a new battery with the key off. So when the same meter picked up 17 volts with the engine running, there is only one reasonable possibility. Goose
Guest tx2sturgis Posted July 22, 2009 #49 Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) Actually, I think even a $1.99 HF meter that had been dropped from a moving bike would be fine here. While I understand and would normally applaud your caution, in this case there is just too much corroborating evidence that can only support the diagnosis: First symptom was bright lights and blown bulbs - can only be caused by high voltage. Or loose battery connections-(tx2) Boiled battery only caused by high voltage or way too long connected to normal charging voltage and excessive current. Or left too long with low electrolyte levels..that can cause overheating also.-(tx2) He already checked and verified the plug and ground for the regulator/rectifier was good. Given that we assume a visual looksee did the trick.-(tx2) Most importantly, the meter used showed the correct voltage when connected to a new battery with the key off. If the meter is unreliable, or damaged, readings are meaningless.-(tx2) So when the same meter picked up 17 volts with the engine running, there is only one reasonable possibility. Goose I was being cautious and thorough. I wanted to make sure the meter can be trusted, as its the 'gatekeeper' for this event. Its not like its a 25 cent fuse he's gonna buy, based on our internet postings. Yes...I agree...I'm 99.04% sure its the R/R...but Rick is gonna be out $100-$200 bucks for a new R/R...and If were wrong...well...hey, he's a neighbor and I wanted to be sure before I help him spend his money. Of course a shop can simply plug in a new unit and check everything...making sure its fixed will cost them nothing, other than time. One more thing Goose...I have seen symptoms like this caused by bad grounds, loose connections, and frayed wires at the battery posts. Add in a flaky meter, and its POSSIBLE that a simple repair of a battery lug can fix things. BUT...at this point I'm willing to send Rick to the websites ( or stealership) and help him spend his money...you too it seems...SO... RICK? Order a damn regulator! Edited July 22, 2009 by tx2sturgis
LilBeaver Posted July 22, 2009 Author #50 Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) Thanks for the suggestions Brian. I did some checking around (yesterday and today) and it turns out that the cheapest place I found (that would get me the unit within a few days) is actually the stealership. So, 9:01 this morning I walked in the door there and ordered one guaranteed to be delivered by 11 tomorrow. This will give me time to get everything back together and take a reasonable length test ride (convenient that Lubbock has a 17.5 mile expressway that traverses the circumference of the city). When I get some time I will crack open the case of my failed one to identify what went wrong with it and satisfy my curiocity of its construction. Normally I would not have questioned the meter but two weeks ago when I was at TRIUMF running my experiment I had some problems with an RF generator unit that took some time troubleshooting. During this process we found that one of the meters that we were using was giving us a bad reading when used with the RF unit but seemed to work fine when used on regular power supplies. By the way, this was an Agilent bench meter. So if I had problems with that one, I figured that it is possible that my own personal one (that is many years old) could possibly have issues as well. I guess a 'flaw' I have as an experimental Physicist is being complete and systematic with my observations and examination throughout any type of testing process; I had also figured that some of the details of my observations may benefit someone else down the road. If not, all that is lost is the few minutes it took me to write up the post and whatever time was spent reading it 'unnecessarily'. For those of you that have taken the time to follow along, offer suggestions/contribute, it is greatly appreciated. Hopefully some day I can return the favor. Now to finish putting the bike back together and try to figure out what is going on with the CB... Rick M. Edited July 22, 2009 by LilBeaver Grammar issues; Remove some excessive spacing caused by an excited 'return' key
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