Broke down at 3 o'clock in the afternoon on a lonesome highway in Texas...Need Advice

[LilBeaver]

I didn't really know how to title this but hopefully I can get some advice here.

** I have indicated with the asterisks where the point you can jump to in order to get the jest of what I am looking for, but if you care to read about what happened, begin here.

 

I am planning a trip (~3500 to maybe 5000 miles) in a week so I decided to make a test run today with some new gear that I picked up and some of the fine tuning of the bike to get an idea of what I may need to adjust, etc. Well, I get about 150 miles East of Lubbock, Texas and the dash lights get real bright for about 5 seconds and there is all sorts of crazy static and what literally sounded like microphone feedback (a positive feedback loop) coming out of the radio and the headsets. So first thing I do is turn off the CB, then the radio and the noise stops. The bike seems to be running fine through all of this, so I pull over to check the lights (I figured a bulb blew out on me given the change of brightness of the dash lights) and I guess as a creature of habit I turn the bike off as I put it on the side stand. About a half-second after I turned the key to the off position I closed my eyes and muttered a few choice words to my self as I realized that could have been a really bad choice.

The g/f and I dismount and I flip the key on as I walk to the front of the bike and I see what I had expected; no low-beam (high-beam, passing lamps, turn signals, tail lamp(s) and the brake lights) are all work fine. So, I think to my self, no biggie - I'll just run with the bights on (as I usually do anyways). So we saddle up, dash looks normal, so I push the ol reliable starter button and the dash dies, let go and it comes back. I pop the side-stand up, pull the clutch in and double check the kill switch to ensure that all those safety deals are in proper position and again push the starter button and no dice. Dash goes blank and does not come back this time. Check lights again, no lights but I had the radio. So I had thought that it was the ignition switch.

Before removing the tank and wiring up a bypass I decide to check fuses just to make sure; box next to the driver's seat, fuse box in cowling, and the main fuse that is located just behind the fuse box next to the driver's seat are all good. "Well shucks" is exactly what I said. At this point the only person to have passed was the county sheriff who happened to turn around and ask if everything was alright. (I had chuckled to myself and thought 'yup, everything is fine, that's why I'm laying next to my bike on the asphalt in 100+ degree heat & the lovely Texas sunshine admiring how hot the pavement actually gets... Here's your sign'). I stood up and politely explained that the bike is not running. We chatted a bit while I started to pull the tank to go ahead and bypass the ignition so I could get back on the road. Just before I snipped the first ignition wire he had pulled a jumper box out of his car and asked if I wanted to try that before I did anything else... I thought, I can try that but I am pretty sure it will be a waste. So we hooked the jumper box up, I turned the key and who would have guessed that I'd have the dash lights back. Well, to make things even better everything lit up (except the low-beam bulb that was out -- I had high beams and passing lamps still) So, pushed the ol starter button and it started right up, first crank like it always does!

My jaw literally dropped as I stood there staring at it not believing what had just happened. So, we pulled off the jump box right away and the bike didn't skip a beat; sitting there purring away. So now, I decided I didn't want it running while I put the tank back on and whatnot so I shut it off, put it all back together went to start it up with the jump box again, hooked it up, turned the key, hit the starter button and I got nothing. Unfortunately the jump box was dead and we resorted to jumper cables; jumped the bike, the G/F and I saddled up, I thanked the deputy and we were both on our way.

Now, my next challenge was getting fuel since I had 100 miles on the tank already and was 150 miles away from home... Fortunately, as I was closing the garage door (before I left) I checked the pockets and I did not have the spare key that I usually carry... I decided at the last minute that I ought to run back in and grab it since I have it. This saved my butt since I was able to fill up without killing the engine (I know this is dangerous but I was not happy with my alternative choices) and finding some way to start it (I have push started plenty of vehicles, but I am pretty sure that the RSV is one that I would have a hard time push starting since it is pretty flat around here and it is hard to paddle run your-self fast enough to get the thing started).

Well, I ended up making it home safely; pulled it in the garage and shut it off.

 

To summarize:

While cruising along, dash lights got extra bright (for about 5 seconds) accompanied by loud noises on the radio and through the headsets (which I presumed occurred when the low-beam blew out) followed by no action from the battery (no power what-so-ever). Stopped the bike [stupidly] shut it off and it would not start without jumping the bike. Once bike was running, High-beam burned out within a few minutes of running with it on (Had similar dash light behavior, ie. get real bright for about 5 seconds then dim down to their normal level again; Passing lamps still functioning properly) At this point I did not have the radio, CB or cruise on at risk of doing damage to other electrical components.

 

When I got home I looked at the battery, checked the terminal voltage with a multi-meter and read off 12.88V (no load) and with the key in the on position, no passing lamps on I got a reading that started at 1.34V and steadily dropped 0.03 V per second (in 0.01V increments). OBVIOUSLY there is something wrong with the battery.

I had noticed right when I had gotten the bike that on the top of the battery there were the caps that 'seal' one of the filler holes for the H2SO4, one cap was broken and the top was covered with electrical tape. I had pulled the battery out (it was dated 05 I believe... yea yea yea, I know I should have replaced it but it seemed to be functioning fine) and inspected it and I had no reason to believe that it was in bad shape. There did not seem to be any malfunctions while riding, the bike NEVER cranked slow or struggled at idle (although I did notice that if I sat at an intersection for a while with a turn signal on the dash lights would dim slightly when the turn signal was on, and then return to their 'normal' brightness when the turn signal was off) I didn't think much of this as everything seemed to be functioning fine. So I had some extra caps laying around from other batteries so I put a cap on it, sealed it and then re-installed the battery (This was 8 weeks and 2,000 miles ago)

I noticed today that the cap that I had replaced was no longer there so the hole was exposed again.

 

The only modifications that have been made on the bike are:

1) Passing lamps that I believe are tapped into the headlight circuit (unfortunately) via a relay to come on ONLY when the high-beams are on AND the push-button switch is depressed

2) Stebel air horn powered directly from the battery (via a relay and through the fuse of course) with the relay triggered by the horn button -- wired as many others have wired these on their bikes

3) LED Tail light (one of those Radientz 32 LED Plug into the 1157 bulb socket deals)

4) 15 Bulb LED light bar on the rear (tapped into the tail light circuit via the wires behind the license plate) setup to have 3 LEDs on as running lights and all light up when brake lights are activated.

 

*** The Questions ****

So, what I have come here to look for, after sharing this novel with everyone are a few things:

 

1) When your bike is at idle and you have a turn signal on do your lights (either the dash lights or indicator lights (ie. neutral, or whatever) flash a little or at all?

 

2) Obviously I am replacing the battery and the light bulbs that I have managed to blow out BUT my question is this: Is it possible that when the battery is under load there is an internal short that does not allow the battery to draw its normal charge current (whether it is by corrosion of the electrodes, bad cell or what have you) which would have caused some of the current that should have been delivered to the battery (from the generator/alternator/stator -- whatever the proper term for those puppies are) and ended up being delivered through the electrical system casing the of the headlamps (which would be similar to starting a vehicle then unplugging the battery from the vehicle while it is still running) and also possibly the odd behavior with the radio (I have not tried the radio while plugged into a different power source yet)

I know a thing or two about physics and classic cars and bikes but what I do not know much about is the way these newer bikes are wired. I know for sure on an older car with relatively simple electrical systems, this IS the case.

 

3) (The important one) What, if anything, could have caused this behavior with the battery IF the battery was NOT the SOURCE of the problem to begin with. Or, stated differently, is there anything that would have caused the battery to do this to me (basically die) that I should be checking before I put a new battery in and damage the new battery?

(I assume the generator works fine since when I got the silly thing started it drove me home)

 

I am so frustrated and flustered right now that I just cannot really think straight so any thoughts on this would be GREATLY appreciated.

This just ruined my day... although there are PLENTY of things that went good today too. The sheriff’s deputy stopping, me being on a test run instead of being further away from home or anywhere in the middle of a trip or on a hard deadline to return, I had dry weather while monkeying with the bike on the side of the road (It started thunder storming a few hours after I got home), my g/f was actually cool with everything while I was working on it and asked that I take her out for another ride when I get it fixed since she got gyped on this one, and I could go on but I won't because I've written enough to get me booted from the site for hogging bandwidth.

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to read this and thank you in advance for any thoughts that you have on this issue.

 

Oh to top it all off I hit a bird on the way home... the stupid thing flew right into the shield, scratched the crap out of the side of it, spatter and feathers all over the place (I had spent a few hours this morning washing, waxing and polishing the bike... It looked fantastic), and in all of that I was lucky enough to have it miss both me and the g/f... After that, she hit me and asked me wtf I did that... sheesh.

END for real.

 

- Rick M. :bawling:but :bowdown::bowdown::bowdown: that I made it home in 1 piece AND have some folks, much smarter than me that will hopefully contribute to my de-confusion of these occurrences

Edited July 19, 2009 by LilBeaver

[spear]

Never having been to Texas (in fact never having been to America) I'd say, "Stay away from Texas." :rotf:

[i'm sorry - come here!]

[Tom]

That one is out of my knowledge base but I will follow the post and maybe learn something myself..Sorry about the bad luck,hope you get an answer soon.

[Squidley]

Rick,

Obviously get a new battery, Ventures are prone to what some of us call sudden death syndome, battery simply pukes for no apparent reason. Now the 1st thing I would do is change the hookup on the driving lights. I always hook mine directly to the battery with it's own fuse and hooked to a relay for switched power.

If the driving lights were installed by a dealer and in accordance with the Yamaha instructions, it's going through the ignition switch, thats a bad choice and needs also to be changed. Dont rule out that the ignition switch isn't going bad either, happens all the time on the older G2's. Look also for the driving lights wire that runs by the fork stops by the upper triple tree for being pinched and arcing out. Make sure also to check and make sure the Regulator/rectifier is working right. Just some random thoughts that I'm throwing out, let us know of your progress and we'll help you get it figured out

[V7Goose]

The battery did NOT cause an increase in voltage that would have made lights brighter or burned them out. Not physically possible - you cannot get more voltage out of something than exists in it.

 

I can't even begin to imagine how you could have seen the dash lights get brighter in mid day, but never having experienced this problem myself, my lack of imagination is not surprising.

 

1 second description of our charging system:

A motorcycle's stator puts out max voltage (for whatever RPM it is turning) all the time, and the Reg/Rec converts that to 12V DC and shunts everything that is not needed to ground.

 

Your problem:

Either the unit is toast (probably), or the ground is bad (unlikely). If all that riding didn't smoke other stuff, like your ignitor, you are extraordinarily lucky, and beyond all probability, since your bike kept running, it seems the ignitor must still be good.

Goose

[Flyinfool]

The battery did NOT cause an increase in voltage that would have made lights brighter or burned them out. Not physically possible - you cannot get more voltage out of something than exists in it.

 

I can't even begin to imagine how you could have seen the dash lights get brighter in mid day, but never having experienced this problem myself, my lack of imagination is not surprising.

 

1 second description of our charging system:

A motorcycle's stator puts out max voltage (for whatever RPM it is turning) all the time, and the Reg/Rec converts that to 12V DC and shunts everything that is not needed to ground.

 

Your problem:

Either the unit is toast (probably), or the ground is bad (unlikely). If all that riding didn't smoke other stuff, like your ignitor, you are extraordinarily lucky, and beyond all probability, since your bike kept running, it seems the ignitor must still be good.

Goose

 

Just to add a few thoughts here;

The bad battery can be a symptom of the real problem and not the cause.

If the rec/reg is not working correctly, the battery is one of the components that can/will be damaged by the high voltage.

The diodes in the rectifier can fail either short or open.

There are 6 of them. they convert the 3 phase AC from the stator into DC.

If one or two diodes fail open, you just lose available electrical power, and the power will have a ripple. This is the most common failure mode.

If 1 or more diodes fail short then you can actually get AC into the electrical system.

 

AC in the system can do a lot of damage to anything electronic.

 

If the lights were getting super bright, the only thing that can cause that is a problem with the rec/reg system. Start looking there. Since it is intermittent ( I hate intermittent stuff) it most likely a wiring issue, like loose or corroded connections. These loose or corroded connection could be inside of the rec/reg unit.

 

I would disconnect (not just turn off) all electronic stuff that is not needed to run the bike while you are troubleshooting this. Many electronics still are connected and using power even when turned off and could still be damaged by bad power.

[LilBeaver]

Squidley:

 

Thank you for your response.

- Battery is in the works.

- Driving lights wiring - I agree 100% I finally had the time this week to rewire that whole getup and I actually have not been using them since I first read about all of the potential problems associated with them (Fortunately there is that little switch that allowed me to turn those puppies off) -- I will definitely look specifically for the wires rubbing though (I looked through/over a lot of the wiring last night, but I was getting real discouraged so I called it quits and figured I should come at this with a fresh head.

 

All:

- How does one check a regulator/rectifier? I suppose a check for continuity and some standard resistance is probably a reasonable way to start.

 

Thanks again, I'm going to get working on it some more and I'll be back and forth as I am in process...

 

- Rick M.

 

Rick,

 

Obviously get a new battery, Ventures are prone to what some of us call sudden death syndome, battery simply pukes for no apparent reason. Now the 1st thing I would do is change the hookup on the driving lights. I always hook mine directly to the battery with it's own fuse and hooked to a relay for switched power.

 

If the driving lights were installed by a dealer and in accordance with the Yamaha instructions, it's going through the ignition switch, thats a bad choice and needs also to be changed. Dont rule out that the ignition switch isn't going bad either, happens all the time on the older G2's. Look also for the driving lights wire that runs by the fork stops by the upper triple tree for being pinched and arcing out. Make sure also to check and make sure the Regulator/rectifier is working right. Just some random thoughts that I'm throwing out, let us know of your progress and we'll help you get it figured out

[LilBeaver]

Jeff:

 

Thank you for your response - for ease I will comment within the quote.

 

- Rick M.

Just to add a few thoughts here;

The bad battery can be a symptom of the real problem and not the cause.

- Yes, this is the root of my concern here and wanted to look into it instead of plopping a new battery in and frying that one too.

 

If the rec/reg is not working correctly, the battery is one of the components that can/will be damaged by the high voltage. Okie-dokie

The diodes in the rectifier can fail either short or open.

There are 6 of them. they convert the 3 phase AC from the stator into DC.

If one or two diodes fail open, you just lose available electrical power, and the power will have a ripple. This is the most common failure mode.

If 1 or more diodes fail short then you can actually get AC into the electrical system.

- Great info

 

AC in the system can do a lot of damage to anything electronic. Yup, sadness

 

If the lights were getting super bright, the only thing that can cause that is a problem with the rec/reg system. Start looking there.

Since it is intermittent ( I hate intermittent stuff - No kidding) it most likely a wiring issue, like loose or corroded connections. These loose or corroded connection could be inside of the rec/reg unit. -- Hmmm sounds like a winner

 

I would disconnect (not just turn off) all electronic stuff that is not needed to run the bike while you are troubleshooting this. Many electronics still are connected and using power even when turned off and could still be damaged by bad power. Good call

[LilBeaver]

Goose:

 

Thank you very much for your response, again for ease I will comment within it.

 

- Rick M.

 

The battery did NOT cause an increase in voltage that would have made lights brighter or burned them out. Not physically possible - you cannot get more voltage out of something than exists in it.

Maybe I was a little unclear with this. I did not mean to imply that the battery itself magically put out more power. What I had thought may be possible is that since the battery usually consumes some power from the stator (that puts out a steady ~14V to charge the battery while running) if one or a few of the internal plates managed a short within the battery itself, there would be a reduction of the internal resistance of the battery thereby NOT consuming the expected power and momentarily 'shocking' the system... Now, I realized this was a stretch, but I could not come up with anything else that even remotely made sense last night (I guess being tired and worked up did not help the whole thinking clearly business). Last night I did not even consider the regulator/rectifier as a possible contribution to this whole fiasco. - I do not know if that clears up what I had intended on saying or not, but I am going to leave it at that since we both agree that my thought (and how these bikes' electrical system is designed) seems to be bogus.

 

I can't even begin to imagine how you could have seen the dash lights get brighter in mid day, but never having experienced this problem myself, my lack of imagination is not surprising.

My thought on this is that it is quite possible that my lights were not as bright as they should have been since I acquired the bike. In fact, in the daytime I found it difficult to see the lights to begin with... I could tell they were on, but they were not nearly as bright as any other bike I have ever ridden. This is my first Venture (I do not recall the brightness of the dash lights of the 09 that I test drove at the dealer before I bought this one) so I had just figured that it was a normal level for three reasons. 1) They were consistent at being the same brightness during the day

2) The Texas sun is bright and I figured maybe that is just how it is

3) I could see them fine when it was cloudy or at night so between 1 and 2 I just let it go without much thought.

When the lights popped on real bright my thought was 'Wow, I wish they were like that all of the time!' I could ACTUALLY SEE them.

1 second description of our charging system:

A motorcycle's stator puts out max voltage (for whatever RPM it is turning) all the time, and the Reg/Rec converts that to 12V DC and shunts everything that is not needed to ground.

Do'oh! *Smacks self in head* This makes sense...

 

Your problem:

Either the unit is toast (probably) - What 'unit' are you refering to? The rectifier, right?

or the ground is bad (unlikely) - I agree that this is unlikely, none the less I will be spending many many hours checking everything over and testing ever single component for a short to ground.

If all that riding didn't smoke other stuff, like your ignitor, you are extraordinarily lucky, and beyond all probability, since your bike kept running, it seems the ignitor must still be good. - Yea, usually I am not a lucky guy but I hope that it is still good. I was careful not to turn on anything that I was not 100% necesary to drive home.

Hopefully I got lucky and it is all still good... after all we all like to get lucky once and a while...

 

Thanks, hopefully I did not use all of my luck up riding home

Goose

Edited July 19, 2009 by LilBeaver

[V7Goose]

Yes, the "unit" to which I referred is the regulator/rectifier. AFAIK, the ground for that unit is just the back of it where it is bolted to the frame. Possible it is heavily corroded, or even that the bolts came out, causing the ground to be bad.

 

BTW, the charging system does not put out a steady 14V at all times, but that is a minor point. More significant to your understanding of how the charging system works, it senses the amount of current needed by the bike, including the battery, and lets that much pass into the system. If the battery is shorted so the current passes through without charging it, then the regulator just sees it as a battery that needs charging and continually passes all the available current on. That situation often results in burned wires and pins for the two large output wires on the reg/rec plug. On the other hand, if the battery is open so it takes no charge at all, then the regulator just thinks it is a fully charged battery and shunts all the excess current to ground.

 

Finally, the reg/rec is a sealed unit, and the is little you can do to test it. With a fully charged battery (important), you simply check the voltage at the battery terminals around 5,000 RPM. If the voltage is over 14V (or reads AC instead of DC),the unit is bad. If the voltage is under 14V, then the problem could be the stator, the reg/rec, or the wiring.

Goose

[LilBeaver]

Lunch break for me so update for anyone watching this and helping me out...

- I have setup the battery and am charging as per the manufacture's instructions.

- I have pulled the seat, tank side covers, cowling and have inspected the wires that I could get my paws on... looking very carefully so far I have found none that show any indication of wear on the insulation or exposed wire, etc. I am trying to be very systematic about this so I do not miss any single wire (which IS making me see crosseyed at times :-P )

I will pull the front faring after lunch and look at those as well as evaluate how whoever installed (Based on the previous owner, I presume the dealer) the driving lights and most likely modify the wiring to appropriately adjust the current flow through the ignition switch (after all these puppies are on the bike and I would like to use them).

 

After I finish inspecting all of the wires that I can find, etc I am going to go over all of the connections (including grounding points) and disconnect, thoroughly clean and appropriately grease all of the connections. (while also testing for inappropriate grounding at each of the harnesses).

 

I realize that it seems very likely, at this point, to be a regulator/rectifier issue but since I won't be able to get one of those until late this week (I assume that the dealership, that isn't open on Monday, will have to order it... so earliest I'll have it will be Wednesday...

 

Goose:

Thanks again for your continued support. You are very knowledgeable about these bikes and I have certainly noticed that you are very willing and able to help others out when needed (and write up some great tech articles).

I have a few comments in the quotes below.

 

Yes, the "unit" to which I referred is the regulator/rectifier. AFAIK, the ground for that unit is just the back of it where it is bolted to the frame. Possible it is heavily corroded, or even that the bolts came out, causing the ground to be bad.

Alrighty, seems like a good consensus among the folks that respond and it certainly is a possible explanation for the symptoms were present.

 

Dumb question: what does AFAIK mean?

 

BTW, the charging system does not put out a steady 14V at all times, but that is a minor point. I know this and you know this, I misunderstood or simply misread your comment in what I have quoted below; I was just going to go with it because I had assumed that you knew something about these stators that I did not and I would try to figure that one out later. But, as we both agree -- minor point.

More significant to your understanding of how the charging system works, it senses the amount of current needed by the bike, including the battery, and lets that much pass into the system. If the battery is shorted so the current passes through without charging it, then the regulator just sees it as a battery that needs charging and continually passes all the available current on. That situation often results in burned wires and pins for the two large output wires on the reg/rec plug. On the other hand, if the battery is open so it takes no charge at all, then the regulator just thinks it is a fully charged battery and shunts all the excess current to ground. I am pretty sure I understand this now. Between you, Jeff (flyinfool) and the wiring diagrams I think I have a clear handle on how these specific things work. Thanks a lot!

 

Finally, the reg/rec is a sealed unit, and the is little you can do to test it. With a fully charged battery (important), you simply check the voltage at the battery terminals around 5,000 RPM. If the voltage is over 14V (or reads AC instead of DC),the unit is bad. If the voltage is under 14V, then the problem could be the stator, the reg/rec, or the wiring.

 

This is bad news for me, I hate not being able to test stuff conclusively... I think that I will wait to start it again until I have a regulator/rectifier that I have good reason to believe is functioning properly (i.e. a new one) since this could do some major damage somewhere if not. When I get a new one, or find something conclusive withe the one that is on there I will definitely check the stator as per the service manual's instructions (the 5,000 RPM voltage check).

 

Goose

 

 

...

1 second description of our charging system:

A motorcycle's stator puts out max voltage (for whatever RPM it is turning) all the time, and the Reg/Rec converts that to 12V DC and shunts everything that is not needed to ground.

 

Yea, somehow I must have missed the underlined portion of that when I read it the first time... But as I said I figured that either you knew something I didn't about these things or my head was just cloudy and I had a bad picture as to what is going on with it.... Anyhoo, no big deal.

 

Thanks again.

[flb_78]

If you have a digital multimeter, check battery voltage with the bike off, then check it with the bike running.

 

You can also check the rectifier by switching the multimeter to read A/C volts to see if there is any A/C voltage in the system. I did this on trucks sometimes when they complained that the truck would go dead but the alt tested OK voltage wise and I would find A/C voltage coming out of the alternator as well as D/C voltage.

[V7Goose]

AFAIK = As Far As I Know - that means I'm pretty darn sure I'm right, but I won't go quite as far as proclaiming it absolute fact!

Goose

[Guest tx2sturgis]

Wow...just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in....

 

I've read the whole thing from start to end, and although its possible that the R/R ( regulator/rectifier) went bad and fried the battery, it sounds more like your battery failed, or the connections to the battery failed, and then everything else cascaded from there.

 

Here is a paragraph from your original post:

 

 

When I got home I looked at the battery, checked the terminal voltage with a multi-meter and read off 12.88V (no load) and with the key in the on position, no passing lamps on I got a reading that started at 1.34V and steadily dropped 0.03 V per second (in 0.01V increments). OBVIOUSLY there is something wrong with the battery.

I had noticed right when I had gotten the bike that on the top of the battery there were the caps that 'seal' one of the filler holes for the H2SO4, one cap was broken and the top was covered with electrical tape. I had pulled the battery out (it was dated 05 I believe... yea yea yea, I know I should have replaced it but it seemed to be functioning fine) and inspected it and I had no reason to believe that it was in bad shape. There did not seem to be any malfunctions while riding, the bike NEVER cranked slow or struggled at idle (although I did notice that if I sat at an intersection for a while with a turn signal on the dash lights would dim slightly when the turn signal was on, and then return to their 'normal' brightness when the turn signal was off) I didn't think much of this as everything seemed to be functioning fine. So I had some extra caps laying around from other batteries so I put a cap on it, sealed it and then re-installed the battery (This was 8 weeks and 2,000 miles ago)

I noticed today that the cap that I had replaced was no longer there so the hole was exposed again.

The issues with battery voltage and the seals on it, make me wonder. Did the previous owner have some trouble? And you found the seal or cap gone today? If any dust or debris got in there, it COULD have caused some problems...shorting of a cell, or other issues.

 

Batteries can fail for a number of reasons, and vibration and heat are only a couple of them. Over voltage, undervoltage, age, excess current draw, and other causes, just to name a few. Certainly debris entering the battery is not a good thing.

 

If the battery failed in a OPEN mode, ( usually caused by a failing cell to cell connection, due to vibration or heat) then the regulator could cause electrical spikes in your system, causing radio problems AND much brighter bulbs.

 

If a battery fails due to SHORTED cells, you can sometimes still operate the vehicle, but the R/R is working hard to keep up, and can overheat a number of things, including the R/R itself, or the stator, or, the battery. Did you notice if the battery had any evidence of swelling on the sides of the case?

 

I'm gonna take a stab at this:

 

Maybe with the heat we've been having around here, and the long ride time, and maybe vibration, and the possibly already aged and weak battery, it just failed. Period. Once it cooled off, it provided enough of a load that the R/R and other systems operated more or less normally on the way home.

 

Now, if it were ME having this issue, I would install the new battery and do a charging voltage/current test on the bike. Leave it outside for a few hours so everything is nice and warm, and do some testing. Watch the bikes lighting and radio for any signs of trouble. Watch the meter that you do the testing with.

 

If all seems good, take it for a ride thats long enough to stress things. But stay in town close to help, if its needed. You could have your g/f follow along in her car with a set of jumper cables.

 

Im guessing that everything is gonna be fine, with the new battery.

 

But, as always, I leave room for possible other problems....but I like to think this is a simple problem with the battery, and thats the first and easiest thing to replace.

 

Good luck.

 

 

 

[LilBeaver]

Brian:

 

Thank you for your response. I have more information from the previous owner that may be significant (but maybe not). The battery was replaced March of 2005 around 22,000 miles. The next service date was June 29, 05 with 24,024 miles. Next was June 26,06 at 27,030 miles. I picked up the bike April of 2009 with 28,500 miles (I actually changed the oil in the guy's driveway before I left, along with inspecting as much as I could get through since I was going to ride it home... 350 miles away). So the bike was obviously not ridden very much in the three years between his last service and me picking it up. I have no idea if the battery stayed connected and in the bike, if he took it out for storage, or if he had a maintainer, etc. He said that he had never had any issues with the bike so weather I can trust him or not, I do not know... His maintenance records (unless he intentionally left something out) are extremely detailed from the day he picked up the bike (with 3 miles on it) to the last entry he made on June 26, 2006. (He told me that he had to stop riding for health reasons). All of the entries were the services that the maintenance schedule called for plus oil changes every ~2,000 miles. Oh, and he had the carbs cleaned and synced before I picked up the bike (with the way the bike ran when I picked it up, I believe it).

BUT, like you said, it is curious if there was trouble with it or if the caps worked them selves loose.

Before I exchanged the battery earlier today (and I now think I should have taken pictures of it for my own reference/reinspection later) I looked it over very well for signs of fatigue on the sides or anything that would hint as to what happend.

All I found was that not only was there a cap missing but two more caps were completely off of the filler holes. One was cracked and the other was stuck loose but not covering the hole.

So there were no signs of the battery swelling in any direction, no discoloration anywhere, no cracks, etc. Just the additional 2 caps leaving 3 of the filler holes exposed.

With as dusty as it is in this part of Texas it would not suprise me one bit if something worked its way in there. I do my best to keep the bike clean, but I ride it daily and it sits outside while I am at my office (which is usually 10-12 hours a day, minimum) So it sits outside in the wind, dust, etc. It is quite frustrating, I spend a lot of time cleaning it all up and it seems like all it takes is one ride for the inside covers and everything to be just completely covered in dust/dirt... But that is west Texas for you...

 

Thanks again for the insight. I have to wait another couple hours for my new battery to be completely charged before I can mess with anything else, so in the meintime I am going to keep going through the wiring and harnesses (eventually wire these passing lamps differntly) since I already have it all apart anyways.

 

- Rick M.

 

...

The issues with battery voltage and the seals on it, make me wonder. Did the previous owner have some trouble? And you found the seal or cap gone today? If any dust or debris got in there, it COULD have caused some problems...shorting of a cell, or other issues.

...

 

Did you notice if the battery had any evidence of swelling on the sides of the case?

 

...

 

[LilBeaver]

Forrest:

 

I will do the AC check - that will be interesting to see...

 

Thanks!

Rick M.

 

If you have a digital multimeter, check battery voltage with the bike off, then check it with the bike running.

 

You can also check the rectifier by switching the multimeter to read A/C volts to see if there is any A/C voltage in the system. I did this on trucks sometimes when they complained that the truck would go dead but the alt tested OK voltage wise and I would find A/C voltage coming out of the alternator as well as D/C voltage.

[dksmith196958]

first off you said the caps were poping off one of the batterys cells.. yes ?

does the battery smell odd .. rotton eggs? if you have one of the cells shorting out

or sulfating it can and WILL over work the charging system.. you did state the batt was from 2005 ? if a cell is shorted it will have enough to run the bike , but not enough reserve to start it, a bad battery can cause all kinds of odd issues....any else add to this...

[Guest tx2sturgis]

Brian:

 

 

 

All I found was that not only was there a cap missing but two more caps were completely off of the filler holes. One was cracked and the other was stuck loose but not covering the hole.

So there were no signs of the battery swelling in any direction, no discoloration anywhere, no cracks, etc. Just the additional 2 caps leaving 3 of the filler holes exposed.

 

 

Thanks again for the insight. I have to wait another couple hours for my new battery to be completely charged before I can mess with anything else, so in the meintime I am going to keep going through the wiring and harnesses (eventually wire these passing lamps differntly) since I already have it all apart anyways.

 

- Rick M.

 

 

 

So your saying that the bike was being ridden for a number of miles/days/weeks with no caps on a few of the battery's cells??? I know that you were unaware of this. But I have to ask the obvious question...were the cells with the missing caps, still showing the normal electrolyte level??? I'm guessing that those cells had low, or maybe even VERY low levels of electrolyte. Now THAT would cause a failure!

 

Not to mention that some of that 'acid' would have been sloshing out and maybe causing some damage to any and everything it touches. Even the fumes can cause damage.

 

 

 

 

Its been awhile since Ive owned a bike with a flooded battery...please tell me your new battery is the AGM type...

 

( crossing fingers)

Edited July 20, 2009 by tx2sturgis

[Guest tx2sturgis]

.....I do my best to keep the bike clean, but I ride it daily and it sits outside while I am at my office (which is usually 10-12 hours a day, minimum) So it sits outside in the wind, dust, etc. It is quite frustrating, I spend a lot of time cleaning it all up and it seems like all it takes is one ride for the inside covers and everything to be just completely covered in dust/dirt... But that is west Texas for you...

 

 

Have you thought about a cover? It will sure help keep it clean and especially reduce the UV damage if its sitting in the sun. If you get one, make sure you let the bike cool down for an hour or so before putting the cover on.

[LilBeaver]

dksmith:

To be more clear, upon inspection the caps were not covering/on the holes... Whether the adhesive gave way and they moved out from heat/vibration or there was a buildup of pressure that popped the caps off I do not know. The battery did not smell unusual when hot or cold before and after this ordeal.

It is interesting how many issues a battery can lead to, even with something as 'simple' as a singles cell going bad...

 

Thanks!

Rick M.

 

first off you said the caps were poping off one of the batterys cells.. yes ?

does the battery smell odd .. rotton eggs? if you have one of the cells shorting out

or sulfating it can and WILL over work the charging system.. you did state the batt was from 2005 ? if a cell is shorted it will have enough to run the bike , but not enough reserve to start it, a bad battery can cause all kinds of odd issues....any else add to this...

[LilBeaver]

Brian:

 

I did my homework before going out to purchase the new battery. I had to go with something that was available off the shelf so that I could get this ready for next weekend (hopefully I can have some conclusive results by then). It is an OEM replacement made by Interstate; it IS the AGM type ... Pretty neat stuff!

 

Concerning the battery that I pulled out, it was difficult for me to tell where the electrolyte (it was a 'sealed, maintenance free' battery -- according to the outside anyways... I forget the brand but it was one that I had never heard of and seemed like an off brand; maybe a 'local' auto parts store house brand or something) was but I did notice significant corrosion on at least 2 of the plates (near the top) of the cells that had the moving caps. And yes, low electrolyte would certainly be a source of failure... I wish I would have looked more closely at the battery and taken pictures now (I already took it in to be recycled... I think I'm going to head back to where I got it to see if they still have it and would give me another look at it....)

 

Looking around the outside of the battery and all around the battery compartment, down the frame etc I saw no direct signs of ANY acid leaking out. I do realize that it sometimes takes a while to show up but it seems to me that if it has been sloshing around for a long time IF anything were to have snuck out I would have seen hints of it somewhere. I am aware of how corrosive H2SO4 is and have already mixed up and wiped all of the nearbye areas with a basic solution that should neutralize any of the acid that could have possibly spilled out.

 

Thanks again.

Rick M.

 

 

 

So your saying that the bike was being ridden for a number of miles/days/weeks with no caps on a few of the battery's cells??? I know that you were unaware of this. But I have to ask the obvious question...were the cells with the missing caps, still showing the normal electrolyte level??? I'm guessing that those cells had low, or maybe even VERY low levels of electrolyte. Now THAT would cause a failure!

 

Not to mention that some of that 'acid' would have been sloshing out and maybe causing some damage to any and everything it touches. Even the fumes can cause damage.

 

 

 

 

Its been awhile since Ive owned a bike with a flooded battery...please tell me your new battery is the AGM type...

 

( crossing fingers)

Edited July 20, 2009 by LilBeaver
Spelling error

[LilBeaver]

Brian:

I believe it was a passing thought at one time but with the conditions down here I think that may be a good way to go. I am actually lucky enough to be able to park it in the shade for most of the time it is outside (at work anyways). And I have put a healthy coat of wax on it as well as leather conditioner for the seat. BUT, I did not anticipate the dust to be as bad as it is so a cover seems like the right way to go...

 

Have you thought about a cover? It will sure help keep it clean and especially reduce the UV damage if its sitting in the sun. If you get one, make sure you let the bike cool down for an hour or so before putting the cover on.

[flb_78]

Since the one that came out had caps on it and you could see the levels, then no, it was not an AGM battery. AGM stands for Absorbent Glass Mat. It's a fiberglass "mat" that holds the electrolyte and it's not vented.

[LilBeaver]

Since the one that came out had caps on it and you could see the levels, then no, it was not an AGM battery. AGM stands for Absorbent Glass Mat. It's a fiberglass "mat" that holds the electrolyte and it's not vented.

 

Right you are. I hope I didn't say that it was somewhere... :-/

[flb_78]

You didn't. I just tossed that out there for general information.