Left fork tube leak at dust cover.

[Condor]

My springs are amost 3" longer than yours. Do I still need the pre-load? (BTW, as far as I can tell, our front suspension never bottomed out, even over some pretty deep potholes.)

 

I just broke a pneumatic 3/8" to 1/4" socket adapter trying to loosen that 10 mm hex bolt inside the bottom of the outer tube. The PO must have really put the loctite to that bolt. The strap wrench is incapable of holding the tube while using a simple lever. Can I re-install the fork brace in order to have that prevent the outer tube from turning as I attempt to loosen that hex bolt with a breaker bar?

 

Thanks again.

 

I've never been into that area before, but from past experience with a 1/4" adapters it would have been a mericle if it hadn't broke. Maybe someone else will chime in who's removed that bolt. I know there's been discussion on here about it... I'd still preload a couple of inches, unless you like the ride. If that's the case leave it alone.... On the brace. Go ahead and use it. If you break it I know where there's another....

[rmcclain]

I just changed mine on my 89 VR. Bought the springs on line (no one stocks) at MAWONLINE. They were the cheapest. Received them in one week. I went to Sears and bought a 17mm allen wrench ($9?) and used a 17mm open end wrench to take the caps out and in. The caps are not very tight. Go to the forum for 1st Gen and search for fork springs. There is a ton of information.

[Pam]

I have always used a 1/2 inch air impact (electric would also work) and a toreqe bit. (Looks like an allan key but has a 3/8 or 1/2 inch drive so you can use a ratchet or in this case an impact) this eliminates the problem of the fork tube turning. Once that bottom bolt is out your off to the races. You might have to bump it down a couple of times to break it loose Frank

[Tony1M]

I placed a big, long-handle 1-1/8" open end wrench on the larger flat sides of the outer tube where the axle pinch bolts go through. Then I used a rather long 10 mm allen wrench and attached a long adjustable wrench to the allen wrench. Squeezing the two wrenches together finally broke free the bolt. Yikes! Then then free-spinning bolt finally unscrewed itself from the inner piece.

 

Here's where everything is right now:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/Tony1M/underoutertube.jpg

 

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/Tony1M/innertubebottom.jpg

 

I can now see why a special tool is needed to reach down from the top and prevent the piece into which the 10 mm bolt screws from turning. No doubt this will be most important when re-assembling everything.

 

What is holding in place that piece that is dangling down from the inner tube? To examine it, is it OK to push it up from the bottom using a dowel, or something, so that I can grab it from the top?

 

Thanks again, guys.

[MiCarl]

That piece hanging out is the damper rod. If you turn the fork over it should fall out. Otherwise a push with a dowel rod should do it. After it's out is a great time to grind your tool a bit for good fit (mine has nut ground on one end and not on the other. I use it for many forks and thought the full sized nut fit the rod)

 

Hope you paid attention to how the oil lock and sprigs went on the end of it (I didn't think of it until I saw the damper rod).

 

The springs in my 89, while single rate, have no spacer, and there really is no room for one. It's stiff enough as it is. In fact, I'm probably over oiled for the heavier spring. I assume that with the spring installed it protrudes from the top just a bit? Were you happy with the ride? If so, don't add a spacer.

 

That appears to be a dual rate spring. I believe the change in pitch on a progressive is continuous, where that spring definitely has 2 separate pitches.

 

I'd be tempted to reduce the amount of fork oil due to the heavier spring. I wish that had occurred to me when I built mine. Be interesting to know what the progressive instructions have to say about amount of oil. Anyone with progressives still have their instructions?

[MiCarl]

Oh, one more thing:

 

From the pics it looks like you have some nitrile gloves. When you're ready to slide the new seal onto the fork upper cut the hem off a glove and put it over the fork. Slather it up with fork oil then slide the seal over it. This will keep the edge of the fork from damaging the seal.

[Tony1M]

MiCarl,

Thanks for the information! Because the inner tube is still installed in the bike, I cannot "turn it over" (if that is what you meant), so I'll shove the damper up through the inner tube using a dowel and remove it from the top.

 

Here are the parts I have so far:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/Tony1M/partarrangement.jpg

 

When I removed the outer tube, the two parts on the left remained in the bottom of the separated tube. (The other four to their right remained on the surface of the inner tube. Then I removed them. The leaking seal is the rightmost. The dust cover and the metal washer beneath it are still temporarily taped to the upper part of the inner tube. I've got the locking wire ring sitting on a table.)

 

As I said, the two parts on the left end of the group slid off the damper rod and remained in the outer tube as I removed it. When I tipped the outer tube upside down to get those two parts out, the leftmost, much-larger part came out first. Then I shook the tube a bit more and the very thin washer came out. I'm not positive which goes over the end of the damper rod first, but I'll figure that out from diagrams, etc. (As far as I can tell, there are no more parts inside the outer tube.)

 

The top of the spring was not poking out the top of the tube. I believe the spring was just touching the bottom of the screw-in cap when it was fully inserted. I can always pick up a one or two-inch long piece of what, 1-1/4" diameter aluminum or steel rod and stick it in there before I put the cap on, but, as I said, the bike handles great without any spacer, so I don't know if that is really necessary.

 

Thanks for the tip about the nitrile glove.

 

Thanks again for the help.

[Tony1M]

Here's a photo of the 1/2" threaded rod with its nut sitting in the machined end of the damper rod:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/Tony1M/nutvsdamperrod.jpg

 

As you can see, the nut is waaaay too small to fit in the 12-point socket of the damper rod. I measured from a small "flat" to the small flat opposite and parallel to it. Almost exactly 1". But that's meaningless, really. The question is: what size nut, IF ANY, fits that socket. Actually, the socket strongly resembles a huge female torx.

 

Anyway, tonight I'll continue disassembling the other fork and tomorrow I'll try to find something to fit that socket. I'm thinking I might make a nice-fitting cardboard template for the socket, transfer that to the surface of a large, thick washer, and grind the shape. But I'm open to all suggestions on this one.

 

Thanks again, guys.

[Tony1M]

Here's a photo of the top of the driver's right fork tube and spring, just after I removed the cap:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/Tony1M/springintube.jpg

 

I measured the distance from the top of the spring to the top of the tube - a little LESS than 7/8". I measured the cap from top to bottom - a little OVER 7/8". So when the cap is completely screwed in, the spring is being compressed just a very little. When I put eveything back together, I suppose I could put a 1" spacer in there just for the heck of it, but I'm open to any other suggestions.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

Tony

 

 

[Tupperj]

Tony,

 

I'll suggest a different cheap tool to make. Everything you need should be at your local hardware store. Get a bolt with a 15/16 or 24mm head. Next go to the plumbing section and find some black iron pipe. There is a 1/2 pipe that will just allow the bolt to fit in. Get a 3 foot section, a 2 foot section and a T fitting.

 

When you get home, cut the 2 foot section in half. Thread each half into the flat part of the T and the 3 foot section into the other outlet of the T. Now you've to a big T-handle.

 

Either weld the bolt into the long end of the T or through drill and use a roll pin if you don't have access to a welder.

 

Now, once you have the fork opened up and the spring out, you can put the bolt end of the T down the fork tube and it will engage into the top side of the piston to hold it in place. Usually I have the forks off the bike and I just turn the tool upside down, slide the fork over it and put my feet on the T-handle on the floor. Gives me good leverage to get that pesky allen bolt out.

 

Here are some pics of my cobbled up version, just don't laugh at my lousy welding skills.

 

Hope that helps!

Paul

[Tony1M]

Tony,

 

I'll suggest a different cheap tool to make. Everything you need should be at your local hardware store. Get a bolt with a 15/16 or 24mm head. Next go to the plumbing section and find some black iron pipe. There is a 1/2 pipe that will just allow the bolt to fit in. Get a 3 foot section, a 2 foot section and a T fitting.

 

When you get home, cut the 2 foot section in half. Thread each half into the flat part of the T and the 3 foot section into the other outlet of the T. Now you've to a big T-handle.

 

Either weld the bolt into the long end of the T or through drill and use a roll pin if you don't have access to a welder.

 

Now, once you have the fork opened up and the spring out, you can put the bolt end of the T down the fork tube and it will engage into the top side of the piston to hold it in place. Usually I have the forks off the bike and I just turn the tool upside down, slide the fork over it and put my feet on the T-handle on the floor. Gives me good leverage to get that pesky allen bolt out.

 

Here are some pics of my cobbled up version, just don't laugh at my lousy welding skills.

 

Hope that helps!

Paul

 

Paul,

Fantastic! I'll rig up something like that. With that head size, there may even be "bolts" out there that are 36" long.

___________________________________________________

 

Here are two parts from the service manual that I think are significant for our bike:

 

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/Tony1M/manual1.jpg

 

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/Tony1M/manual2.jpg

 

In the first photo, the manual calls for two wave washers and one washer. I've got one wave washer. Nice. I wonder if Yamaha still has those washers?

 

To me, the second photo from the service manual suggests that the 84 VR may very well have had OEM progressive or dual-rate springs. What do you think?

 

I could not get that lower 10 mm bolt out of the bottom of the tube on the driver's right fork tube. The bolt turns, but does not loosen enough so that it can be removed and the tubes separated. It's still fairly snug, but rotates. In short, I need that long tool to go down to the hold the damper rod. So I'll have to get my thumb out and make that tool, or I'm done riding for the summer.

 

After I get the thing apart, it looks to me that the only things I have to buy are two seals, those washers (if I can find them), fork oil and perhaps those custom-made maybe-1" spacers, correct? (Can a just use two equal-height stacks of snug-fitting washers on top of the springs as spacers?)

 

Thanks again, all.

 

Edit: The service manual shows two collars and THREE spacers. None of these were on top of our springs, but I'm not sure that our springs are OEM. I've got a bit of a conumdrum here.

 

Edited July 21, 2009 by Tony1M
more info.

[Tupperj]

Tony,

 

You're right, that info is significant. The washers you need are still available from the Mothership, but likely have to order. Just went through this with my most recent acquisition. Putting on those washers is another reason I like to put the forks back together off the bike. You put the damper rod on the T-tool, put the washers on, the end cap piece (don't remember what Yamaha calls it) and slide the outer fork down over the whole thing. Everything stays in place.

 

As far as which way to put the springs in, according to what I remember reading in my Progressive literature, it really doesn't matter. Some folks thing putting them in a certain way give you less "spring noise". Personally, I've never really heard my springs, but that's could be bad ears.

 

There is a write up (I'm pretty sure) in the tech section on doing a complete fork rebuild. Basically covers what you're already doing, plus a few other parts like the washers we're talking about, and the collars that go around the inner fork tube. Once again, the Mothership or Rick at Buckeye.

 

Best of luck, and keep slogging away at it!

Paul

[Tony1M]

Tony,

 

You're right, that info is significant. The washers you need are still available from the Mothership, but likely have to order. Just went through this with my most recent acquisition. Putting on those washers is another reason I like to put the forks back together off the bike. You put the damper rod on the T-tool, put the washers on, the end cap piece (don't remember what Yamaha calls it) and slide the outer fork down over the whole thing. Everything stays in place.

 

As far as which way to put the springs in, according to what I remember reading in my Progressive literature, it really doesn't matter. Some folks thing putting them in a certain way give you less "spring noise". Personally, I've never really heard my springs, but that's could be bad ears.

 

There is a write up (I'm pretty sure) in the tech section on doing a complete fork rebuild. Basically covers what you're already doing, plus a few other parts like the washers we're talking about, and the collars that go around the inner fork tube. Once again, the Mothership or Rick at Buckeye.

 

Best of luck, and keep slogging away at it!

Paul

Paul, thanks!

 

When I wrote about the photo in the service manual that makes reference to how to orient the spring, I was not really interested in how to orient it. I was under the impression that the OEM spring had coils of equal spacing, so I was very interested in the fact that what is written in that service manual note seemingly confirms that the spring that came with the bike from the factory was/is indeed a progressive spring - one that has variable space between coils. If that is indeed the case, then the springs in our bike might very well be the ones that were in the bike originally.

 

I already have in my mind a very simple tool that will allow me to hold all of the properly arranged parts in place on the damper rod while I install the outer tube over it. If it works, I'll post a photo of it.

 

As soon as I finish this post, I'll be heading out to get the parts for the tool that will prevent the damper rod from turning when I either tighten or loosen the 10 mm bolt. Then I will disassemble the driver's right fork tube and determine exactly how many washers that I have to order. (I already know how many spacers and collars I will have to order.)

 

I have to wonder why whoever removed the washers, spacers and collars did that. Was it only to allow the cap to go back on a bit easier, or was it to make the ride a bit more "luxurious", or soft? Regardless, I'd like to get them back in there, along with the now-missing OEM-specified washers. If the suspension is then too stiff, even with no air pressure, I can always remove the spacers and collars pretty easily (I hope I can test ride the bike without having to install the large dash pieces).

 

I find it hard to believe that these parts are still availble. Are the VR's fork parts unique to the early first gens only, or are they common to other years of VRs, or perhaps even to another model that is still in existence, such as VMax?

 

When you say "Mothership", is this the place you are talking about?

http://street.parts-unlimited.com/

If not, would you provide a link or phone number to the Mothership?

 

Thanks again, Paul.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Tony1M
more info

[Tony1M]

Amazingly to me, the local Yamaha dealer has the seals in stock, and can order the various washers at a price that no online dealer comes close.

 

The only things I need are:

two "spacers", Yamaha part number 26-H2316E-00-00

six "seat, spring upper", Yamaha part number 1W423142-L0-00

 

I'll be checking around for those elswhere. But if anybody has these, please PM me.

 

Anybody know the total height of the three seats, plus spacer? In case I have to fabricate some kind of spacer, at least I'll know how tall to make it. I was thinking I'd get a piece of rod macined so that one end is flat and the other with a protrusion that would fit into the inner diameter of the spring with a shoulder above it to rest against the top of the spring.

 

Thanks.

 

 

Tony

[Tupperj]

Paul, thanks!

 

I have to wonder why whoever removed the washers, spacers and collars did that. Was it only to allow the cap to go back on a bit easier, or was it to make the ride a bit more "luxurious", or soft? Regardless, I'd like to get them back in there, along with the now-missing OEM-specified washers. If the suspension is then too stiff, even with no air pressure, I can always remove the spacers and collars pretty easily (I hope I can test ride the bike without having to install the large dash pieces).

 

I find it hard to believe that these parts are still availble. Are the VR's fork parts unique to the early first gens only, or are they common to other years of VRs, or perhaps even to another model that is still in existence, such as VMax?

 

When you say "Mothership", is this the place you are talking about?

http://street.parts-unlimited.com/

If not, would you provide a link or phone number to the Mothership?

 

Thanks again, Paul.

 

Tony,

 

As I understand it, the washers and the spacer at the bottom of the piston work with the anti-dive system. Don't ask me how, but I'm pretty sure that's what they do. More knowledgeable folk will likely chime in.

 

Haven't done a cross reference, but yes indeed you can still get a lot of parts for the First Gens. For a price.

 

Sorry about the Mothership comment. Mixing my groups. The XJ650 group uses the term Mothership to refer to Yamaha corporate, or your local dealer. The source of all "official" things for our bikes.

 

Keep us posted on how you're doing.

Paul

[Pappa Bear]

You say you have one wave washer, check very carefully and see if they are not stuck together. A P/O of mine was evidentally in there and didn,t put it back together correctly. when I opened her up for the seals and springs on mine that is what I thought also till I began cleaning everything and found them stuck toghether. Good luck

[MiCarl]

Tony,

 

Sorry I misled you on the tool. It's at my shop. I guess it's 5/8 or 3/4 rod.

 

I don't think you'll be able to get all those spacers in with the springs you have. By the way, you have a dual rate spring. I've got an 88 parts bike that I used some of the fork parts from. Those springs were single rate and very light duty. That's why I assumed stock springs were single rate - I can't imagine these springs were an "upgrade". Whatever springs are in my 89 don't leave any room for a spacer. They protrude from the top of the fork about 1/2", which seems fairly typical.

 

While the spring behaves the same whichever direction it is installed, putting the tight end at the top reduces unsprung mass slightly (the weight of the spring is shifted more toward the frame and less toward the wheel). Less unsprung mass and more sprung mass improves ride quality.

 

It's pretty easy to get the upper fork tubes out of the tree. I'd go that route rather than messing around with a tool to hold the oil lock together. Also, much less likely to damage the seal if you put it on from that end.

[Tony1M]

You say you have one wave washer, check very carefully and see if they are not stuck together. A P/O of mine was evidentally in there and didn,t put it back together correctly. when I opened her up for the seals and springs on mine that is what I thought also till I began cleaning everything and found them stuck toghether. Good luck

 

Papa Bear, the driver's right tube had only one spring washer in there, and the driver's left had only bits and pieces of the three washers remaining in the tube. In short, it wasn't pretty. For that reason I'll bet the anti-dive was not working on either side.

 

I'll be ordering 6 new washers.

 

Tony,

Sorry I misled you on the tool. It's at my shop. I guess it's 5/8 or 3/4 rod.

 

I don't think you'll be able to get all those spacers in with the springs you have. By the way, you have a dual rate spring. I've got an 88 parts bike that I used some of the fork parts from. Those springs were single rate and very light duty. That's why I assumed stock springs were single rate - I can't imagine these springs were an "upgrade". Whatever springs are in my 89 don't leave any room for a spacer. They protrude from the top of the fork about 1/2", which seems fairly typical.

 

While the spring behaves the same whichever direction it is installed, putting the tight end at the top reduces unsprung mass slightly (the weight of the spring is shifted more toward the frame and less toward the wheel). Less unsprung mass and more sprung mass improves ride quality.

 

It's pretty easy to get the upper fork tubes out of the tree. I'd go that route rather than messing around with a tool to hold the oil lock together. Also, much less likely to damage the seal if you put it on from that end.

 

MiCarl, no problem about the tool. It just cost me a few bucks. Maybe it'll come in handy for some other purpose.

 

Today I built the tool suggested above by Tupperj. It came out very well. Rather than weld, I pinned both the bolt and the T to the central pipe/shaft in order to prevent rotation of either on the shaft.

 

That other 10 mm hex bolt was in there so tight my wife could barely resist my turning force. Eventually the bolt broke free and I got everything apart. Yikes! The cap bolts and 10 mm bottom bolts were either tightened way over torque, or they were both "loctited" in there with the stuff that's supposed to be permanent.

 

Since I don't know how high the 1-spacer/3-collar combination would actually poke out the top of the tube (if at all), I could compromise and put a 7/8" high custom aluminum spacer in there. Sitting on the spring, the top of that spacer will be just even with the top of the tube. It should still be an easy matter to push down just a bit with the cap to engage the threads of the tube properly, then, when it is completely screwed in, it'll compress the spring 7/8" rather than just barely compressing the spring as it did before. Better than nothing.

 

I'm going to go ahead with my custom tool to keep everything in place, and NOT remove the tubes from the tree. My first plan requires two people. I will use a long wooden dowel that will go down through the entire length of the tube and taper spindle. I'll then attach a piece of paper clip, or light wire, across the end of the dowel that is long enough to temporarily hold the taper spindle (and the washers above it) in place. Another dowel goes down the inner tube to hold the edge of the taper spindle firmly downward against its spring. My wife will be the "dowel operator". Then I'll raise the outer fork tube up over the cylinder and onto the inner fork tube. When the paper-clip/taper spindle touches the inside bottom of the outer tube, my wife will pull out the dowel/paperclip. As the dowel is pulled up, the paper clip bends into an inverted V shape at the point where it is attached to the dowel, goes up through the fork cylinder (damper) and finally out of the bike. With the other dowel still holding the cylinder firmly down, I'll try to get a few threads of the 10 mm bolt engaged in the cylinder. After that, the big tool goes in to hold the cylinder and I tighten the rest of the way. Easier said than done, but I'll give it a whirl.

 

Alternatively, I can poke a dowel UP through the hole in the bottom of the outer fork tube, then attach the paper clip or wire, and press it lightly up against the taper spindle to hold it in position, etc. This way, the weight of the big tool by itself will hold the cylinder firmly in postion all the way through bolt insertion. Might even be a one person job.

 

I'd love to hear any other suggestions on how to hold that taper spindle and washers in position as I install the outer fork tube. (Light grease, maybe?)

 

As you suggested, I'll wrap the tube with some nitrile to prevent damage to the seal. Of course I'll have to fabricate a device to seat the seal in the outer fork tube.

 

I already picked up the seals at Yamaha. Good. Tomorrow I order the rest of the parts. Yamaha has told me that the parts should be here in 5 to 7 days. Not too bad, I guess.

 

I'll post when there's something new to report.

 

Thanks again for the help, guys.

 

 

Tony

 

[Condor]

Ya know this thread has become one of the best fork seal odysseys I've ever read. The pics are great, and the problems one can run into are well documented. Tony, you're doing a great job. When it's over the whole thing should be moved to the Tech section.

[Venturous Randy]

So we are saying the two washers and wavey washer are there for the anti-dives? I just replaced my fork seals and now am bottoming out bad, like my anti-dives are not working at all. I put it back together like it was before and it was not bottoming out before. My 83 has the brake activated anti-dives.

And, no, I have not put progressive springs in it yet.

RandyA

[Tony1M]

So we are saying the two washers and wavey washer are there for the anti-dives? ........................................

RandyA

 

Yes, I think so, but I don't as yet understand how the group of washers/damper rod/damper rod hole/taper spindle/anti-dive all interact with each other. I don't understand how the oil flows through the various ports and holes, etc., but let's face it, the total amount of possible "compression" of the little stack of washers is only about 1/4" (when I get the new washers, I'll know for certain), so this is the maximum amount that the taper spindle can travel up and down the damper. (However, like other things in life, just a fraction of an inch can make a big difference in "performance".)

 

There are two curved, springy washers (Yamaha calls them "spring, valve", part number 26H-2319M-00-00) and one straight washer (Yamaha calls them "washer", part number 26H-2319L-00-00).

 

I believe they're arranged like this on the damper rod (the taper cylinder slides on from the right):

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/Tony1M/washerorientation.jpg

[Tony1M]

............................................The spring -is- a progressive. Much thicker coils than stock. IT also displaces more oil so when refilling the forks plan on using less oil to fill.

 

Ideally, with the spring installed, how far down from the top of the tube should the surface of the oil be?

 

Thanks.

 

[MiCarl]

Yes, I think so, but I don't as yet understand how the group of washers/damper rod/damper rod hole/taper spindle/anti-dive all interact with each other. I don't understand how the oil flows through the various ports and holes, etc., but let's face it, the total amount of possible "compression" of the little stack of washers is only about 1/4" (when I get the new washers, I'll know for certain), so this is the maximum amount that the taper spindle can travel up and down the damper. (However, like other things in life, just a fraction of an inch can make a big difference in "performance".)

 

There are two curved, springy washers (Yamaha calls them "spring, valve", part number 26H-2319M-00-00) and one straight washer (Yamaha calls them "washer", part number 26H-2319L-00-00).

 

I believe they're arranged like this on the damper rod (the taper cylinder slides on from the right):

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/Tony1M/washerorientation.jpg

 

Your diagram looks like my understanding of how the washer and springs should be assembled.

 

The taper spindle is called the "oil lock piece" on some other Yamaha motorcycles. I think that is a clue to it's function.

 

Since I had the good fortune to break the anti-dive off my 89 while caving in the side of a car that pulled out in front of me I can see that the anti-dive provides a passage for the oil to flow around the taper spindle. In the process of repairing rebuilding my front end I learned that the anti dives completely block that passage when activated. This makes sense because if the fluid can't flow the forks can't dive.

 

I suspect that the taper spindle in conjunction with the spring (which the washer simply keeps the two pieces from nesting) forms a pressure relief valve. So while braking if you hit a bump the taper spindle will lift against the spring and allow some oil to flow so you don't knock your eyeballs out.

[Condor]

Ideally, with the spring installed, how far down from the top of the tube should the surface of the oil be?

 

Thanks.

 

I'm pretty sure it was 5" but I can't locate the progressive installation sheet. Somebody else know for sure??

[kbran]

I'm pretty sure it was 5" but I can't locate the progressive installation sheet. Somebody else know for sure??

The progressive springs I just put in my 86 had 1-1/4inch spacers and I cut one of mine in half. See this thread http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=36010&highlight=spacer and this thread http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=21821&highlight=spacer