She died suddenly and mysteriously...

[FreezyRider]

Today on my way home from work, I was cruising along on my 99 RSV at 60mph in 4th gear. Radio off, cruise control on. All of a sudden the engine died as if I'd hit the kill switch. Initially I thought that the cruise had just dropped out. Nope. Checked the kill switch, hadn't hit it. Flicked it back and forth a few times and tried to restart. Nothing.

 

I have read all the posts on ignition switch failure and this sounds different. All my lights, radio, dash lights and instruments are working normally. The only problem is that when I hit the starter button nothing happens except for the engine temp light (red light on the lower right of the instrument panel) comes on until I release the button. I can hear the fuel pump run, 4-way flashers work, horn (Stebel) works....everything but the start circuit.

 

I'm thinking kill switch failure. Any of you wizards have any thoughts before I start tearing her apart?

 

Sure am thankful that this didn't happen last week in the middle of my 2000 mile Appalachian mountain range trip!

 

Joe

[BuddyRich]

I would really check the kill switch. If I remember right that is the light that comes on when you forget to turn the kill switch to the run position

[FreezyRider]

I would really check the kill switch. If I remember right that is the light that comes on when you forget to turn the kill switch to the run position

 

That light comes on (now) no matter which position the kill switch is in. Therefore, my belief that therein lies the problem.

 

I've accidentally flicked the kill switch off so many times in my years of riding that now when a bike dies that is the very first thing I check.....

 

Joe

[Vance]

hit the starter button nothing happens except for the engine temp light (red light on the lower right of the instrument panel) comes on until I release the button.

 

 

The engine temperature red light is supposed to come in when you depress the starter button. That is so you can do a bulb check for that bulb.

[V7Goose]

BOTH the engine coolant temp light AND the oil level light should ALWAYS come on when you hit the starter (with key on, of course) - that is the only way to check and verify they work since these two lights do not come on when the key is turned on.

 

You did not tell us if you tried to start the bike in gear with the clutch in, in neutral, or on the side stand. These three things are critical to making an educated guess on the cause of your problem. In addition, does the neutral light still work correctly?

 

One item that could cause the symptoms you describe is a bad side stand switch - the 2nd gens will not run or crank under any circumstances if they are in gear and the side stand is down.

 

This thread:

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=34165&highlight=starting+circuit+relay

should have more than enough detail describing the total working of the interaction between the neutral switch, side stand switch, clutch switch, and the starting circuit cutoff relay (maybe too much). Starting with post #9, I did a detailed analysis, and there is more in later posts. May take some time to read it all and absorb the details, but I am sure you can find the cause of your problem in there somewhere.

Goose

[FreezyRider]

Goose,

 

Bike was in gear, coasting after it died. I pulled in the clutch lever and tried to restart. Nothing.

Since getting it home it has been in the garage with sidestand down, in neutral. Same result when trying to start. I have verified that the neutral light still functions as normal.

 

I'll read the other thread and see if I can find something there. Thanks.

 

Joe

[FreezyRider]

BOTH the engine coolant temp light AND the oil level light should ALWAYS come on when you hit the starter (with key on, of course) - that is the only way to check and verify they work since these two lights do not come on when the key is turned on.

 

You did not tell us if you tried to start the bike in gear with the clutch in, in neutral, or on the side stand. These three things are critical to making an educated guess on the cause of your problem. In addition, does the neutral light still work correctly?

 

One item that could cause the symptoms you describe is a bad side stand switch - the 2nd gens will not run or crank under any circumstances if they are in gear and the side stand is down.

 

This thread:

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=34165&highlight=starting+circuit+relay

should have more than enough detail describing the total working of the interaction between the neutral switch, side stand switch, clutch switch, and the starting circuit cutoff relay (maybe too much). Starting with post #9, I did a detailed analysis, and there is more in later posts. May take some time to read it all and absorb the details, but I am sure you can find the cause of your problem in there somewhere.

Goose

 

 

Goose,

On the other thread, in post #7 you said:

One other piece of information - if the kill switch is on and you hit the start button, ONLY the engine temp light will come on, not the oil level light. That may help us determine if they made some abnormal modification to the wiring.

 

Since this is exactly what my bike is doing (regardless of the position of the kill switch) that leads me to believe that the kill switch itself is the problem. Am I assuming too much?

 

Joe

[FreezyRider]

I was just playing around with it again and noticed another thing that I don't think is normal....at least I have never noticed this before.

Bike in neutral, side stand down, neutral light on, clutch either in or out (no difference)..I noticed that the fuel level indicator on the dash is blinking on and off. At first all of the bars were lit. After a few seconds it changed to only the bar on each end of the indicator being lit. Strange.

 

I'm wondering about the SCCR after reading the other thread referred to by Goose....

 

Joe

[BuddyRich]

May want to try bypassing the Ign switch ? Hotwire it and see if its all right.

[FreezyRider]

May want to try bypassing the Ign switch ? Hotwire it and see if its all right.

 

According to the info in the tech section posted by Freebird, the switch tests OK. Continuity between red and brown (switch on) and between the blue/yellow and blue/black. In addition, since ALL lights and gauges work this doesn't seem to be ign switch related. I will make a jumper and try it just to be sure.....

 

Thanks.

 

joe

[Steve S]

I was just playing around with it again and noticed another thing that I don't think is normal....at least I have never noticed this before.

Bike in neutral, side stand down, neutral light on, clutch either in or out (no difference)..I noticed that the fuel level indicator on the dash is blinking on and off. At first all of the bars were lit. After a few seconds it changed to only the bar on each end of the indicator being lit. Strange.

 

I'm wondering about the SCCR after reading the other thread referred to by Goose....

 

Joe

 

I experienced the flashing fuel gauge once while 2 states from home. I called the service manager at our local dealer and he said it was a dionogstic code describing some kind of problem. He said as long as the bike was running, it was OK to ride. The bike was still under warranty so I just took it to them when I got home. For the life of me I can't remember what the problem was . Fortunately, I didn't have any problems while I was on the road. :clap2:

[FreezyRider]

Another thing eliminated....

 

I just pulled the SCCR relay and tested it according to Goose's instructions. She tests out fine.

 

Does anyone know how the kill switch functions? When in the run position, does the switch close across the two contacts or does it break connection between the two?

 

Joe

[V7Goose]

Goose,

On the other thread, in post #7 you said:

One other piece of information - if the kill switch is on and you hit the start button, ONLY the engine temp light will come on, not the oil level light. That may help us determine if they made some abnormal modification to the wiring.

 

Since this is exactly what my bike is doing (regardless of the position of the kill switch) that leads me to believe that the kill switch itself is the problem. Am I assuming too much?

 

Joe

This is very interesting - I don't remember making that statement or why, but it sure sounds significant since normally both those lights come on. I guess I'll have to go back to the schematic in the morning to try and refresh my mind on what I saw before. Good catch!

 

I just went and checked my own bike again, and that symptom is consistent - with the kill switch in kill mode, only the temp light comes on, but if it is in gear on the side stand, both lights come on (even tho it is still "dead"). I think I'd focus on checking the kill switch and wires, just like you are thinking.

 

The flashing fuel gauge is a self diagnostic - the number of flashes is the code. The specific code is documented in the service manual. I'll look at the schematic tomorrow and tell you what is going on with the kill switch.

Goose

[FreezyRider]

This is very interesting - I don't remember making that statement or why, but it sure sounds significant since normally both those lights come on. I guess I'll have to go back to the schematic in the morning to try and refresh my mind on what I saw before. Good catch!

 

I just went and checked my own bike again, and that symptom is consistent - with the kill switch in kill mode, only the temp light comes on, but if it is in gear on the side stand, both lights come on (even tho it is still "dead"). I think I'd focus on checking the kill switch and wires, just like you are thinking.

 

The flashing fuel gauge is a self diagnostic - the number of flashes is the code. The specific code is documented in the service manual. I'll look at the schematic tomorrow and tell you what is going on with the kill switch.

Goose

 

Thanks, Goose. My brain is fried for tonight. Gonna call it a day and just veg out for a bit.

 

Joe

[SaltyDawg]

Big time shot in the dark, but I had almost the same thing happen to me while riding but it started up after a few minutes. Then a week or so later my bike wouldn't start at work. Everything looked good, had lights and everything you describe except I don't recall the fuel gage thing. Thankfully Beer30 was able to come pick the bike up with his trailer and hauled me home.

 

Long story short the battery had a short in it. With no load on the battery read 12.4VDC turned the key on and the voltage dropped, hit the starter and it went to 0vdc and stayed until the switch was turned off again.

 

Taking muffinmans advise I jumped the bike from our car. Bike started right up. Replaced the battery haven't had a problem since.

 

Not saying that is your problem, but it is a place to look before you get too deep into it.

[BuddyRich]

, but it sure sounds significant since normally both those lights come on.

 

The little red lite is pointing at your right thumb wanting you to look in that direction.

[FreezyRider]

Big time shot in the dark, but I had almost the same thing happen to me while riding but it started up after a few minutes. Then a week or so later my bike wouldn't start at work. Everything looked good, had lights and everything you describe except I don't recall the fuel gage thing. Thankfully Beer30 was able to come pick the bike up with his trailer and hauled me home.

 

Long story short the battery had a short in it. With no load on the battery read 12.4VDC turned the key on and the voltage dropped, hit the starter and it went to 0vdc and stayed until the switch was turned off again.

 

Taking muffinmans advise I jumped the bike from our car. Bike started right up. Replaced the battery haven't had a problem since.

 

Not saying that is your problem, but it is a place to look before you get too deep into it.

 

Thanks for the idea, Salty. I have a battery load tester, but didn't think of trying that. I'll test it and see.

 

Joe

[1sttenor]

This sounds similar to my problem and one that we've been talking about on another thread. When you turn it on, does the fuel pump engage? I'd try taking the left side cover off and lightly tapping the fuel pump. Mine did the same thing and is headed for the shop this week. I gave a light tap to the fuel pump and it pumped for several seconds and voila, we're in business.

[FreezyRider]

This sounds similar to my problem and one that we've been talking about on another thread. When you turn it on, does the fuel pump engage? I'd try taking the left side cover off and lightly tapping the fuel pump. Mine did the same thing and is headed for the shop this week. I gave a light tap to the fuel pump and it pumped for several seconds and voila, we're in business.

 

Yes, fuel pump runs. ALL electrical systems work fine with one exception....NOTHING happens when you push the start button except that the red temp light comes on. If you want to see your bike do the same thing, simply turn the kill switch to the off position, turn the key to on, and press the start button. You will see exactly what I see. Except mine does the same thing regardless of which position my kill switch is set to.

 

Joe

[V7Goose]

Here is another test for the Kill Switch I found by tracing the schematic: In the run position, the Kill Switch provides 12V from the ignition fuse (you did check that fuse, right?) to both the Oil level and Check Engine light. I have verified on my RSV that normal operation of the Check Engine light test is to come on for about 3 seconds when you first turn on the key, but if the Kill Switch is in kill position, the Check Engine light does not come on at all when you first turn on the key.

 

Unfortunately, I now doubt that the Kill Switch is your problem, since you said you can hear the fuel pump. Besides providing 12V to those two dash lights, the Kill Switch also provides 12V to the Starting Circuit Cutout Relay (SCR) and all four coils. If the the SCR is drawn correctly on the schematic (BIG "if", since I already know there is at least one mistake with it), the fuel pump gets its power from the Kill Switch through the other half of the SCR. That would be the same line that provides 12V through an R/B wire to each coil, so that should be easy to check on the coil just behind the radiator cap.

 

The kill switch connects through a 6-pin 2-row plug. Probably under the tank, but could be in the fairing; you will have to trace the wires to find it. The plug only uses 5 of the six pins, with the open pin on one corner of the side that does not have the plug lock. The kill switch uses the Red/White and Red/Black wires - the R/B wire is the center pin right under the plug lock, and the R/W wire is right next to it, diagonally opposite the open pin. On the bike side of that plug, the R/W wire should have 12V with the key on (from the ignition fuse).

 

With the kill switch in Run position, you should have a short between the R/B and R/W wires at that plug.

 

That should give you enough info to isolate the problem. If you still can't figure it out, post the results of test on all the items above and I'll try to take if further.

Goose

[FreezyRider]

Here is another test for the Kill Switch I found by tracing the schematic: In the run position, the Kill Switch provides 12V from the ignition fuse (you did check that fuse, right?) to both the Oil level and Check Engine light. I have verified on my RSV that normal operation of the Check Engine light test is to come on for about 3 seconds when you first turn on the key, but if the Kill Switch is in kill position, the Check Engine light does not come on at all when you first turn on the key.

 

Unfortunately, I now doubt that the Kill Switch is your problem, since you said you can hear the fuel pump. Besides providing 12V to those two dash lights, the Kill Switch also provides 12V to the Starting Circuit Cutout Relay (SCR) and all four coils. If the the SCR is drawn correctly on the schematic (BIG "if", since I already know there is at least one mistake with it), the fuel pump gets its power from the Kill Switch through the other half of the SCR. That would be the same line that provides 12V through an R/B wire to each coil, so that should be easy to check on the coil just behind the radiator cap.

 

The kill switch connects through a 6-pin 2-row plug. Probably under the tank, but could be in the fairing; you will have to trace the wires to find it. The plug only uses 5 of the six pins, with the open pin on one corner of the side that does not have the plug lock. The kill switch uses the Red/White and Red/Black wires - the R/B wire is the center pin right under the plug lock, and the R/W wire is right next to it, diagonally opposite the open pin. On the bike side of that plug, the R/W wire should have 12V with the key on (from the ignition fuse).

 

With the kill switch in Run position, you should have a short between the R/B and R/W wires at that plug.

 

That should give you enough info to isolate the problem. If you still can't figure it out, post the results of test on all the items above and I'll try to take if further.

Goose

 

Thanks, Goose....that does help. Since you have indicated that the kill switch actually makes a connection between the R/B and R/W wires, that probably means that the kill switch is not my problem. I say that because last night I shorted across the contacts on the back of the switch where the wires are soldered on, just to see what would happen. Still no cranking with them shorted.

 

Yes, I did check the ignition fuse. First I pulled it and inspected it, looked OK. About a half hour later, not trusting a visual inspection only, I pulled it again and used the meter on it. Tested ok. Actually went ahead and put another fuse in it's place just to be sure.....

 

Now I'll have to start tracing power to see where the voltage stops.

 

As a further clue....I think it may be in the fairing. The wires from the kill switch go there....AND I had the fairing apart last weekend working on a driving light wiring fiasco that the previous owner had created. Got that one fixed...and may have loosened something else up in the process?????

 

Joe

[V7Goose]

Well, here is your problem, if the kill switch IS providing 12V to the SCR and coils, but is NOT providing 12V to the two idiot lights, then the switch and plug are both obviously good. So the first think I would test is Check Engine light self-test, then the power at the coil. If nothing at the coil, start tracing the R/B wire from the plug. The schematic looks like there might be a bullet connector in this wire before the SCR somewhere - that would be the most likely source of the problem.

Goose

[FreezyRider]

Thanks to all for all of the help....and a big special thanks to V7Goose!!!! Your help was what pointed me in the right direction. After getting home from work today, I put the meter on it and determined that I had power to the kill switch, but no power to the coils. Following the wires from the kill switch into the fairing led me to that 6 pin connector that Goose talked about. Lo and behold, the prong on the wire from the k/s carrying power to that connector had pulled almost out of the back of the connector. After reinserting it and then zip-tying it in place to keep that from happening again, all systems are now normal.

 

Whew, what a relief to hear her run again!!

 

Goose, if I ever meet you in person I'll buy you a cold one ...or two....or more....of your choice!

 

Joe

[V7Goose]

Glad you found the problem and got it working. It still puzzles me how you could have had power to the fuel pump but not the coils if the problem was in that plug, but I guess I won't worry about it as long as it's running!

Goose

[FreezyRider]

Glad you found the problem and got it working. It still puzzles me how you could have had power to the fuel pump but not the coils if the problem was in that plug, but I guess I won't worry about it as long as it's running!

Goose

 

 

Goose,

 

To be honest, I think maybe my hearing was playing tricks on me. I thought that I heard it click 3 or4 times once when I was turning the key on/off. However, when I actually got the connection repaired and turned it on the fuel pump ran for 6-7 seconds before it got primed up. I really don't think at this point that what I heard was actually the fuel pump. Hearing is one of the first things to go.....

 

Again, thanks! I owe you.

 

Joe