86 VR- grinding bad

[Dano]

Was out to Big Dude's (Mike) house today to look at his grinder. He pulled a holeshot and when he went to grab second gear, he thought he missed it. Went to 3rd and it was there. Started making a grinding sound by the middle gear area, harrdly pulling itself down the road.

 

Muffinman had him pull the final drive and driveshaft, all looks good.

 

We pulled the middle gear cover off, cannot feel anything through there. Pulled the swingarm off and removed the output half of the pinion gear (which I thought would be gone) and it looked perfect. Pulled the clutch and could not find anything there. turning the inner clutch plate produced no grinding sounds. Dropped the oil pan, no extra materials in there.

 

Before we disassembled everything, I started it and tried it myself. WIth clutch pulled in, no noise. As soon as you try to put it in gear, the grinding starts. As long as it's in gear, it will grind. Will hardly pull itself, even with my scrawny butt on it!

 

I'm thinking we may have to pull the motor and split the cases to see whats going on in there, but any other opinions will be investigated first.

 

Dan

Edited June 15, 2009 by Dano

[Marcarl]

With nothing in the oil pan, I'd be interested in what it could be. Does the tranny shift ok?

[Squeeze]

Sounds like one of the Bearings of the Tranny Output Shaft is gone. The big Bearing behind the angeld Gear Cover(left rear Cover) is a big Noise Emitter.

 

You wouldn't believe this. I had this Bearing locking up on my '99 Max, but only at one specific Spot and the Motor sounded like you're hammering it with a Slegde Hammer, much much worse than the hammering Sound of a missing Starter Clutch.

 

I had to turn the dismounted Bearing for about 2 or 3 Minutes to find the locking Spot. In Fact i was only playing around with the Bearing at the Time, because i didn't find anything bad inside the Motor. Just sitting there, smoking and Thinking while turning the Bearing meaningless until it locked up. I still was in some Disbelieve until i had the Engine back togehter and the hammering was gone.

 

But it could also be in the Area where the primary Gear mesh to the Crank. Without the Tranny in Gear, there's no Load on the Clutch Basket and therefore the Meshing is unobstructed. Tranny in Gear means Load and therefore the Clutch Basket is pushed to the Side and making Noise. Not very likely, but worth checking before you tear the Motor out and apart.

[Dano]

We will pull the clutch basket next and check behind there. We also checked the output angled gear to u-joint, no play there.

Am I looking for side-to-side play in the crank or main axle?

 

Dan

[Squeeze]

Mostly by the Main Axle and meshing of the primary Gears, if the Crank would move inside the Bearing, you won't hear a grinding Noise, but just one loud "BANG" and then Silence.

 

There's a Bushing inside the Clutch-Basket. It's only a vague Guess, and i won't bet ANY Money on it, it's just to check before taking up on the major Job. Not funny, as you know.

[CrazyHorse]

Sounds like one of the Bearings of the Tranny Output Shaft is gone. The big Bearing behind the angeld Gear Cover(left rear Cover) is a big Noise Emitter.

 

You wouldn't believe this. I had this Bearing locking up on my '99 Max, but only at one specific Spot and the Motor sounded like you're hammering it with a Slegde Hammer, much much worse than the hammering Sound of a missing Starter Clutch.

 

I had to turn the dismounted Bearing for about 2 or 3 Minutes to find the locking Spot. In Fact i was only playing around with the Bearing at the Time, because i didn't find anything bad inside the Motor. Just sitting there, smoking and Thinking while turning the Bearing meaningless until it locked up. I still was in some Disbelieve until i had the Engine back togehter and the hammering was gone.

 

But it could also be in the Area where the primary Gear mesh to the Crank. Without the Tranny in Gear, there's no Load on the Clutch Basket and therefore the Meshing is unobstructed. Tranny in Gear means Load and therefore the Clutch Basket is pushed to the Side and making Noise. Not very likely, but worth checking before you tear the Motor out and apart.

 

Would this bearing cause a whine or whirring noise? I have this whirring/whine noise all the time when in gear that drives me nuts but it goes away when I pull the clutch in and you don't hear it at idle out of gear. People riding next to me often comment on how loud it is. Any thoughts Squeeze?

[Dragonslayer]

I've got parts if you need them. Just let me know what you find when you find them.

[Squeeze]

Would this bearing cause a whine or whirring noise? I have this whirring/whine noise all the time when in gear that drives me nuts but it goes away when I pull the clutch in and you don't hear it at idle out of gear. People riding next to me often comment on how loud it is. Any thoughts Squeeze?

 

The whining Noise which goes away when you pull the Clutch, is the Bearing in the Pressure Plate. It's a 6003 Bearing, and it's easy to replace. Yamaha has a hefty Price Tag (about tripple of a good industrial Brand Bearing) on theirs, but it's heat treatet and should hold up longer than a "normal" Bearing ... should ...

[Gearhead]

Would this bearing cause a whine or whirring noise?

 

FWIW, usually a bad ball or roller bearing makes more of a rumble.

 

Jeremy

[mini-muffin]

These are the pics of what Jeff was looking at while you were talking earlier.

 

Margaret

[ChurchBuilder]

This sounds like the "Driven Cam". It is part of the middle gear and if the driven cam splits or cracks it will grind. It rides on a splined shaft and if it cracke the shaft will rotate without the driven cam turning. Look inside where the drive shaft comes out (after removing swing arm, u-joint, pinion gear, etc.)

[Dano]

Quick update, clutch boss has 14 thousandths clearance with the axle shaft, should only be 3-5 thousandths. Lots of chatter evident on the boss fingers. Clutch push rod would not return all of the way back in until I cracked the hose joint at the master cylinder. This was holding the clutch partially out allowing the slip to occur. System is still slow to allow retraction of the push rod quickly, still have to work on that. I figure the clutch boss wobbling along with the clutch plates being held out allowed the plates to create the grinding noise and it was transmitted to the other side. No other evidence has presented itself yet, so we're running with this!

 

Dan

[bongobobny]

Hmmm, time to rebuild the hydraulics, eh??

[Venturous Randy]

Quick update, clutch boss has 14 thousandths clearance with the axle shaft, should only be 3-5 thousandths. Lots of chatter evident on the boss fingers. Clutch push rod would not return all of the way back in until I cracked the hose joint at the master cylinder. This was holding the clutch partially out allowing the slip to occur. System is still slow to allow retraction of the push rod quickly, still have to work on that. I figure the clutch boss wobbling along with the clutch plates being held out allowed the plates to create the grinding noise and it was transmitted to the other side. No other evidence has presented itself yet, so we're running with this!

 

Dan

 

Dan, several years ago I had a problem with the clutch getting stiffer and not releasing good and I found the metal line under the engine going to the clutch slave had blockage.

RandyA

[jasonm.]

Just before a trip. I had a similar blockage. But at the rubber area by the steering neck. Makes a sharp bend there. The hose collapsed internally. Got SS line and fittings. I took the clutch out and apart 3 times before I realized the problem due to the lack of clutch release and noise of the hydraulic fluid attempting to get past the blockage.

[Dano]

Quick update, Churchbuilder nailed it. Wish I would have seen that when we tore it apart on Sunday the 14th. Coulda had it fixed by now. Gotta remember to SLOWLY go thru each portion of the driveline and inspect closer. If I would have just rotated the tranny while looking at the middle gear, I would have spotted it quickly and looked like a real pro! Now I gotta start all over again.

I am however, looking into building a jig that would let me get in there without pulling the motor............ Interesting prospect for all those split clips and thrust washers that need replaced...........

 

Dan