Running rich

[tiny84]

ok well i have my carbs synched now and i've adjusted the idle but the bike is still getting poor MPG and still seems to have a lower top speed. is thier any way to lean out the Air fuel mixture? or is that what the idle screw does?

[Condor]

Rejetting is the only way you can lean out the top end...

[tiny84]

ok well it shouldn't need to be rejetted since its the stock jets what would anyone recomend i do to remmedy this issue? think its not good spark? new plug wires and such?

[Condor]

Could be a lot of different things. Boost sensor, plug wires, fouled plugs, valve clearance, holes in the diaphrams, restricted air filter, bad coil, etc., etc. Sorry Adam, I wish I could help you more, but partial loss of high end power could be caused be several things. Have you changed the plugs and plug wires yet? Run Sea Foam thru the carbs??

[Squeeze]

.... Run Sea Foam thru the carbs??

 

 

He's constantly running on more or less Seafoam, the Mileage is getting better somehow. He mentioned that in several other Threads about basically the same Issue. The Carbs finally need a complete cleaning Job.

 

But, instead of doing this ....

[Condor]

But, instead of doing this ....

 

Gotcha......

[tiny84]

ok well how long should a complete carb teardown and rebuild take? I'm working too jobs and have only a lil "free" time in the evenings to do this kind of thing. I'm trying to take any opportunity to check off all the other lil "easy" things that could fix the issue. I noticed I have a leak in the exhaust the clamp on the exhaust for the rear head is missing its bolt causing exhaust to vent out there a lil bit. this is most likely the cause of my popping from the mufflers.

 

 

I might be ignorant of this but running rich didn't exactly seem like the carbs were still gummed up and i have run a healthy ammount of sea foam through the fuel system. I kinda figured if it runs rich that the carbs must be free of debris and that my issue is not getting enough air or poor spark.

 

 

I recently replaced the plugs but not the wires. i'm looking at replacing the plugs again as when we tried to adjust the idle I was mistaken and adjusted the sync screw instead now i've done a farm boy carb synch myself till i can get it into the dealer. but i figure all the time running with the sync so terribly screwed up the plugs are probly fouled again. so i may have just answered my own question.

 

 

I have one friend up here who works on bikes but he works just about as much as i do so its hard to get the time to grab him long enough to do the carbs as he said the bike would probly be down for a weekend to do it right.

 

 

Sorry I'm probly getting a lil annoying with this issue but this seems to have gotten the best mix of solutions as it is very easy to say rebuild the carbs, and it was an solution that I had already though of and expected I would have to do. I have gotten a few ideas i'll be looking into IE Checking the carb air vents/over flow hoses for obstructions, visualy inspect the needle tips, and measuring the resistance on the plug caps be sure they are ok. once I have all my bases coverd and the issue is still there then I will resolve to deal with the poor MPG untill winter when we do a full tear down on the bike.

 

 

Ok so this was a long post and i'll shut up now

[tiny84]

Whats a boost sensor? I have delt with boost sensors on cars and such but as this is a NA engine I wouldn't have thought this would have one unless it means something different on a motorcycle.

[Oldgold]

It's the electronic vacuum advance signal to the ignition computer.

[GeorgeS]

Electronic unit, hooked to #2 Carb Vaccume port. Sends advance signal to the TCI.

Follow the vaccume line, its aboven and fwd of the lft fwd Carb.

 

As to the Sync screws, (( see page 2-12 of servce manual on this web site , maint section )) The left side matches the #1 to the #2 which is the master. ( #1 aft lft cyl, #2 rwd lft cyl, )

 

Cross over rod matches the rt side to the left. side. ( fwd screw on right side )

 

The aft screw on rt side matches the aft rt carb . to the fwd right.

 

If you moved any of the screws, more then about 20 degrees of rotation, then they are screwed up.

 

If you use the main idle adjust ( nurled knob left side, under the fwd carb ) to set idle to about 800 rpm.

 

Then. Start the sync by adjusting rt, rear screw, for Increase in rpm.

then Adjust rt, fwd screw, for increse in rpm.

 

Then adjust the left side sync screw for increase in rpm.

 

You will find the Most Error, in setting of rt rear, then rt fwd, then go to the left side.

These are all mechanical adjustments of the mechanical linkage's between the 4 carbs.

 

You can also use an accurate vaccume gauge if you have one. simple hook to each vaccume port one at a time as you adjust. Adjust for the same amount of vaccume pressure.

 

 

( go to the On line service manual on this wib site, see page 2-12 for a very detailed diagram of the throttle Linkage assembly , print this out if you do not have a service manual. Its a big help )

 

PLUG WIRES, Just get solid core copper stock plug wire at most any auto parts store. Most carry the stuff in bulk. Call around.

The wire screws out of the Ing coils, and plug caps, very easy to replace.

One other comment, you can just screw out the old wires, and Trim Off about 1/4 inch on both ends, and reinstall, just to make sure you have good contact at both ends of each wire.

This is easy to do.

[tiny84]

Ok so I pulled the airbox back off today and the number four diaphram isn't "fluttering" like the others it appears to be in good shape still but seems to be sticking.

 

As for the carb sync I did it with a length of clear tube and gear oil. at first it was so bad it just sucked all the oil in. got it to the point it didn't realy move either way.

 

i'm going to turn down the idle some more and try the sync again tomorrow. but first i'm gonna pull that diaphram and see whats up with it.

[rhncue]

Ok so I pulled the airbox back off today and the number four diaphram isn't "fluttering" like the others it appears to be in good shape still but seems to be sticking.

 

As for the carb sync I did it with a length of clear tube and gear oil. at first it was so bad it just sucked all the oil in. got it to the point it didn't realy move either way.

 

i'm going to turn down the idle some more and try the sync again tomorrow. but first i'm gonna pull that diaphram and see whats up with it.

 

Running carb cleaner thru carbs will not correct a rich mixture. You can run 6 gallons of Sea Foam to no avail. The carbs need cleaned. For every fuel jet in the carb you also have an air jet and running a carb cleaner is no help as it never enters an air jet. Air jets must be cleaned from the outside, not thru the fuel system.

 

Depending on your experience, it takes any where from 3 hours to 8 hours to remove and clean a rack of carbs. The first time I removed my carbs it took well over an hour to pull the rack. The last time I did it it took less than 8 minutes to install and about the same to remove. You learn some tricks after the first attempt.

 

As far as cleaning, it depends if you do one carb or all at once. I always do mine one at a time so that they stay square with each other. I pull all the bowls, floats, jets and diaphragms at the same time keeping each carbs parts separate from each other. I then remove one body and soak that body and parts in cleaner for about 30 to 45 minutes. I brush and blow the parts clean and then resemble that carb and replace on rack and then remove another body. This way, all parts go back where they should and all parts and passageways are cleaned. The small holes in the needle tube and the small pilot jets are what get clogged, the main jet is large and a bolder would be needed to clog it.

 

The easiest way to set the floats, which by the way is usually one reason for running rich, is to set the correct levels before reinstalling back onto the bike. What you need to use is a fuel cell to hold the gas. What I use is a gas tank off of a lawn mower. Hang it up with a flexible line going to the carbs inlet, level the carbs, both front to back and side to side and then hook a clear fuel line to each float bowl. Turn on the gas and with the clear line along side the carb it is easy to see the level and then the bowl can easily be removed for adjustment until correct. If all else is correct, if the level is to low the carb will have less pressure and run lean and if to high, it will run rich.

 

Dick

[BOO]

I would have to agree with Dick (rhncue), clean the Carbs. There is a write up in the Tech library about this and it tells you in great detail how to do it. Think you could do it in 3 -4 hours.

You may have float that has a hole in and has gas inside. Usually gas will pour out on the ground if this is happening.

Usually the floats don't get out of adjustment but then can for different reasons.

A sticking slide valve is definitely not helping your situation.

Sea foam is a great product but it can't clean out of the ports in a Carb.

Get yourself some good Carb cleaner and clean the CARBS. At least that will eliminate one problem and if your condition still exists then you can at least count out the Carbs.

Good luck,

Jerry

[tiny84]

ok so yesterday i pulled the air box and cleaned the main air jets on the carbs 2 of them were fairly gummed up. as soon as i find a screwdriver small enough i'll clean the idle air jets. (yay i get to buy more tools)

 

Also I have to confess the #4 slide sticking is my own fault i need to replace it as when i first got the bike running that slide was in 2 pieces and i glued it back together then sanded it down but not smooth enough. i just picked up some sheets of 1000 grit so i'll clean the slide and smooth it to a mirror finnish and see how that effects everything.

[tiny84]

pulled the carbs apart today and cleaned them out used 4 cans of carb cleaner on em. will know how much better my MPG is tomorrow after my ride to work. crossing my fingers that this did it.

[tiny84]

ok So from the ride into work yesterday and the ride into work today i'm just about sure the MPG has gotten worse since i cleaned the carbs. what could I have done wrong? or does this mean it is something ellse wrong with the bike? it actualy smells like the bike is running richer then it was before. This evening when I get home i'm gonna pull the plugs and see if they are fouled again (from running with the carbs in such poor condition) also going to stop by the hardware shop and pick up a new bolt for my exhaust clamp see if getting a seal on the exhaust leak helps.

 

Low end seems a lil peppier but top end is still right at 75-80. I just want to be sure I didn't screw somthing up. i know i need to replace the #4 diagphram and that the exhaust needs to get a good seal but i just didn't expect my MPG to go down after cleaning the carbs, i'm down to right around 20MPG

[Squeeze]

Hi,

 

first off, check the Temperatures on the Exhaust-Pipes. Of Course you have to ride some Miles for heating everything up to normal Conditions.

 

If you have a cheap, infrared Measuring Device in your Shop, that the Best to use this.

 

Check each Pipe just on the Outlet of the Head. This gives you a Indication, if the Cylinders are working or not. If all the Temperatures are similar, then all Cylinders work, if one is more warm than the others, there is a Chance that this Cylinder is running lean. If there is a drop on one Cylinder, there is one Culprit hidden.

 

One or two Plugs can be fouled during Riding under the previous Conditions.

 

What exactly do you mean when you say you cleaned the Carbs ?

 

Ok, you took them apart, took the Diaphragm Bowls off.

Also the Floater Bowls ?

Did you check only the Main Jet or also the Jets behind the rubber Plugs ? Did you measure the Float Hight ?

Where are the Clips on the Jet Needle setted, seen from the Top, there should be 5 or 6 Notches ?

Did you check the Floater Valves ?

In what Conditions are the Idle Mixture Screws, is everything on Board, there should be a O-Ring, a Washer and Spring on every Screw, seen from inside to outside.

How did you synch the Carbs after Mounting ?

 

Just give us some Answers and we will try to Help.

[tiny84]

What exactly do you mean when you say you cleaned the Carbs ?

 

Took the carbs out of the bike and took each one apart "carefully" cleaned everypart i came in contact with

 

 

Did you check only the Main Jet or also the Jets behind the rubber Plugs ? cleaned all jets.

 

Did you measure the Float Hight ? I didn't check the float hight

 

Where are the Clips on the Jet Needle setted, seen from the Top, there should be 5 or 6 Notches ? All the jet needles were in the same position I dont recall now what position they were in off the top of my head now though

 

Did you check the Floater Valves ? spritzed some carb cleaner on em but they looked ok.

 

In what Conditions are the Idle Mixture Screws, is everything on Board, there should be a O-Ring, a Washer and Spring on every Screw, seen from inside to outside. Check check and check

 

How did you synch the Carbs after Mounting ?

I didn't resynch the carbs again I was going to take it in to the dealer to synch so it would be done right but as it is now i dont know if its worth it if i'm gonna be messing with stuff again. and have to synch again.

Just give us some Answers and we will try to Help.

 

 

Also before i even took the carbs apart i filled each on with carb cleaner and let it sit for about 30 min then flushed them out till the carb cleaner came out clear... at first it was comeing out an orangish color. Honestly the bike does seem to be running smoother now and seems to start a lil easier.

[Squeeze]

Hey, good Comment so far.

 

The unsynched Carbs should not be the big Problem at this Time. Synchronsation only applies from Idle up to around 2500 RpM. Above that, the Butterflies are opened far enough, that any remaining Differences are not disturbing the Function of the Carb-Subsystems.

 

Do you need to utilize Choke for starting the cold Motor ?

 

At what RpM is the Idle now ? Normally it should be around 1000 RpM. Does the Motor holding the Idle you setted, or is it going up and down ?

 

As long as the Clips on the Jet Needles aren't set to the very bottom Notch, they should not affect the Consuption that far.

 

Now, if you smell unburned Gas, this can be either a overflowing Carb or no/weak/bad Spark.

 

I think, i'd go for checking the Plugs as the next Step.

 

Next Step would be checking and, i'm afraid to say, and possibly adjusting Float Levels. If the Level is too high, the Carbs need to be dismounted and splitted again. Also, of Course, the Floater Valves should be checked again.

I read a Posting here, somebody did Place one Carb at a Time in a Glas, without the Bowl on it and filled the Glas with Fuel, this Way you can see the Floater moving and can adjust the Fuel Level against the Mark on the opposite Side of the Carb. That's by far the the easiest Way to do that, what i know so far. If you put a Hose on the Fuel intake of the Carb, you can actually blow some Air with your Mouth in it and determine if the Valves securely closes.

 

If you're were able to access a Thermometer, as i mentioned before, it could be very helpful in resolving this Issue.

[tiny84]

Do you need to utilize Choke for starting the cold Motor ? yes still use choke to start the cold motor

 

At what RpM is the Idle now ? I had to turn down the idle when i first started the bike up after the cleaning it was idleing up just above 2krpms

now its down a lil over 1000 but some times at stop lights it will start to "creep" up in rpms or when i squeeze the clutch in the rpms might hang for a bit (stays at the higher rpm even though i let of the throttle and the clutch is engaged.

 

Does the Motor holding the Idle you setted, or is it going up and down ? i guess i kinda already answered this one but its not like randomly bouncing around in the rpm if thats what your asking.

 

As long as the Clips on the Jet Needles aren't set to the very bottom Notch, they should not affect the Consuption that far.

 

Now, if you smell unburned Gas, this can be either a overflowing Carb or no/weak/bad Spark. would the overflow carb be just releasing alof of vapor or would it actualy be fluid? if its actual fluid its not the over flow, if its fumes how would i tell?

 

I think, i'd go for checking the Plugs as the next Step.

 

Next Step would be checking and, i'm afraid to say, and possibly adjusting Float Levels. If the Level is too high, the Carbs need to be dismounted and splitted again. Also, of Course, the Floater Valves should be checked again.

I read a Posting here, somebody did Place one Carb at a Time in a Glas, without the Bowl on it and filled the Glas with Fuel, this Way you can see the Floater moving and can adjust the Fuel Level against the Mark on the opposite Side of the Carb. That's by far the the easiest Way to do that, what i know so far. If you put a Hose on the Fuel intake of the Carb, you can actually blow some Air with your Mouth in it and determine if the Valves securely closes.

 

If you're were able to access a Thermometer, as i mentioned before, it could be very helpful in resolving this Issue.

 

no thermometer yet but i'll see what we have kicking around the shop after i get free from work. my old ninja we just sprayed the "hot" exhaust headers with a lil carb cleaner and if one didn't smoke or didn't smoke as much we started looking at the cylendar.

 

Thanx for all the help.

[rhncue]

Do you need to utilize Choke for starting the cold Motor ? yes still use choke to start the cold motor

 

At what RpM is the Idle now ? I had to turn down the idle when i first started the bike up after the cleaning it was idleing up just above 2krpms

now its down a lil over 1000 but some times at stop lights it will start to "creep" up in rpms or when i squeeze the clutch in the rpms might hang for a bit (stays at the higher rpm even though i let of the throttle and the clutch is engaged.

 

Does the Motor holding the Idle you setted, or is it going up and down ? i guess i kinda already answered this one but its not like randomly bouncing around in the rpm if thats what your asking.

 

As long as the Clips on the Jet Needles aren't set to the very bottom Notch, they should not affect the Consuption that far.

 

Now, if you smell unburned Gas, this can be either a overflowing Carb or no/weak/bad Spark. would the overflow carb be just releasing alof of vapor or would it actualy be fluid? if its actual fluid its not the over flow, if its fumes how would i tell?

 

I think, i'd go for checking the Plugs as the next Step.

 

Next Step would be checking and, i'm afraid to say, and possibly adjusting Float Levels. If the Level is too high, the Carbs need to be dismounted and splitted again. Also, of Course, the Floater Valves should be checked again.

I read a Posting here, somebody did Place one Carb at a Time in a Glas, without the Bowl on it and filled the Glas with Fuel, this Way you can see the Floater moving and can adjust the Fuel Level against the Mark on the opposite Side of the Carb. That's by far the the easiest Way to do that, what i know so far. If you put a Hose on the Fuel intake of the Carb, you can actually blow some Air with your Mouth in it and determine if the Valves securely closes.

 

If you're were able to access a Thermometer, as i mentioned before, it could be very helpful in resolving this Issue.

 

no thermometer yet but i'll see what we have kicking around the shop after i get free from work. my old ninja we just sprayed the "hot" exhaust headers with a lil carb cleaner and if one didn't smoke or didn't smoke as much we started looking at the cylendar.

 

Thanx for all the help.

 

When an engine is slow returning to idle this is often a sign of a vacuum leak. With bike running at idle you can squirt a little starting fluid around the intake boots and hoses. If the rpms raise you know you have an vacuum leak.

 

Dick

[Venturous Randy]

Another easy thing to do is replace the spark plug caps. They have a built in resister that can get corroded and cause all kinds of problems. It also helps to cut about a half inch off your old wires when you screw in the caps.

This is about a $20 investment and fifteen minutes time.

RandyA

[GeorgeS]

I recall sombody said he installed new rubber Intake manifolds, with New O-rings. and still had intake leaks.

 

Fix was to re install with the new O-rings, AND Gasket Sealant !!

 

Leak was where the manifolds bolt to the heads.

 

Just a thought. but worth checking.

[tiny84]

Ok not sure if this is related to my running rich issue but yesterday I went to leave work but when I hopped on my scoot it wouldn't kick on kept turning over and it backfired a few times mostly through the carbs but acouple times out the exhaust nearly caused the old lady behind me getting out of her car to have a heart attack.

 

ended up running the battery down too much and had to get one of the security guys to jump the bike with a jumper pack. stopped for gas on the way home ended up haveing to push start the bike. yesterday was realy rainy and wet and a lil cold. left it on the trickle charger all night. this morning the trickle charger still said charging not sure whats up with that (may have toasted my bat from running it dead.) hopped on it this morning and it kicked right on. even stopped one place and it started back up after with out too much coaxing. (starter did sound like it wasn't getting all the power it wants)