Not Charging

[Wizard765]

Now I have another question. This is bothering Carl as much as me and he is checking things out when he gets a break.

 

Anyhow when he tests for resistance from the battery neg terminal to anywhere on the bike it is zero when the bike is turned off but if the bike is running the readings are all over the place from 20 to 50. Is this normal or does this indicate a problem?

 

Wayne

[frankd]

The resistance to ground from the negative battery terminal reading 20-50 if the bike is running.......Any current through the cable would cause a small voltage drop. That voltage drop will cause the ohmeter to read incorrectly. You can't read resistance accurately if there is current flowing.

 

You could have a bad rectifier/regulator. A while back my 83 was hardly charging. I measured the stator to ground resistance and it was near infinity (open circuit) as it should be. I then tested the 6 rectifiers in the regulator and one was open (bad). Disconnect the stator and using an ohmeter measure from each stator lead to ground and also the positive battery terminal. Measure each lead with the ohmeter leads in hooked up one way, then reverse them. In one direction you should see the rectifier conducting, and in the other direction it should measure open. Remember you have 3 stator leads, so you will need to repeat this test 6 times. Once from each stator lead to both the positive battery terminal and also once to ground.

[bongobobny]

OK there is a second part ofm the electricity producing device we are ignoring, the rotor! suppose there is an off chance that your rotor has lost some of it's magnetism, and the result is less output from the stator. I have a brand new OEM on the way if you want to try it...

[GeorgeS]

Now I have another question. This is bothering Carl as much as me and he is checking things out when he gets a break.

 

Anyhow when he tests for resistance from the battery neg terminal to anywhere on the bike it is zero when the bike is turned off but if the bike is running the readings are all over the place from 20 to 50. Is this normal or does this indicate a problem?

 

Wayne

 

Well, first time I heard that ( been working on my bike all day ) .

 

Ok, that sounds like corrosion, or loose connection, at one end of one of the Main ground wires.

 

Yamaha, Crimped the Studs to ends of wires, but did NOT Solder them.

 

Most likley place, is Pins inside of the Plug, FROM the Regulator.

 

Or that Main Grounding point Under the upper Fairing.

 

You need to REMOVE the Studs, and Dip in Flux, and RE solder, OR Cut off the Stud, and Crimp on a NEW one,

 

The only way to KNOW if the PINS in the Large Plugs, TO and From the Regulator is to REMOVE THE PINS !!! And Solder, or REplace them !!!!!!

 

Just cause they look good, means nothing.

 

Eaisest Fix, is to Tap into two blacks out of the PLUG, and Run TWo new # 14 Stranded, to a Frame Bolt, and another #12 from there to the Battery Neg. Stud, and Solder it to the Stud on end of Battery Neg Cable.

 

IF that black wire was getting HOT, then One end of it, has a High Resistance Connection, Which is the same thing as the HEating Element on an Electric stove !!

Edited May 16, 2009 by GeorgeS

[Marcarl]

OK. so now I get to say something:

I tested the 3 rectifiers we have here and they all test the same

I used the red lead from the tester as the lead wire and the black as the return.

I tested for ohms, or continuity

 

The results:

Red to white: nothing

red to red: 0

 

White to red: 550 on all 6 tests

 

Red to black: nothing

Black to red: 850 on all 4 tests

 

Black to white: 550 on all 6.

 

Black to black and red to red are all dead shorts.

[Squeeze]

Did you try to bypass the hot black Wire ?

 

And again, what's up with the Starter Clutch ? Is the Starter getting hot while the Bike idles ?

[GeorgeS]

At this point, I think your Stator, and Regulator's, ( all of them ) are good.

 

IF your Stator was Bad, the one of the 3 Phase AC voltage readings would be VERY Low.

 

And I simply can't believe you could have 3 bad Regulators !!

 

You Have Some BAD wireing Somplace. !!!!!

 

IF, that Ground Wire Is getting HOT, then there is A High Resistance Connection ( ie: heating Element ) Somplace in that Wire. It ain't in the middle of the wire, its at one or both ends of it !!. Where the Stud was Crimped to end of wire strands, its Corroded, or most of the Strands of wire are broke off.

 

 

---- OPEN YOUR PLUGS, AND REPLACE THE STUDS, OR, CUT OUT THE PLUG AND SIMPLY SPLICE THE WIRES TOGETHER ( AND SOLDER THEM )

 

Pull the Pins out of the PLUG and repair them . OR, Just Cut OUT the

" Output Plug " from the output side of the Regulator, and SPLICE THE RED AND BLACK WIRES TOGETHER, SOLDER AND INSULATE, AND GIVE IT A RUN.

 

Point: Those TWO plugs have been the Source of about 90 percent of everybodies Charging problems. With the 1st Gen Ventures.

[Marcarl]

Did you try to bypass the hot black Wire ?

 

And again, what's up with the Starter Clutch ? Is the Starter getting hot while the Bike idles ?

Didn't think there was any reason to bypass the black until we're sure that we have a good rectifier installed. I do like that idea though, thanks for the input. As far as the starter goes, we'll check that out once we get things a little more back together. but first I need to know if the test results that I did mean anything, or say anything, that's if somebody knows and\or you can make sense out of what I did.

[Marcarl]

At this point, I think your Stator, and Regulator's, ( all of them ) are good.

 

IF your Stator was Bad, the one of the 3 Phase AC voltage readings would be VERY Low.

 

And I simply can't believe you could have 3 bad Regulators !!

 

You Have Some BAD wireing Somplace. !!!!!

 

IF, that Ground Wire Is getting HOT, then there is A High Resistance Connection ( ie: heating Element ) Somplace in that Wire. It ain't in the middle of the wire, its at one or both ends of it !!. Where the Stud was Crimped to end of wire strands, its Corroded, or most of the Strands of wire are broke off.

 

 

 

---- OPEN YOUR PLUGS, AND REPLACE THE STUDS, OR, CUT OUT THE PLUG AND SIMPLY SPLICE THE WIRES TOGETHER ( AND SOLDER THEM )

 

Pull the Pins out of the PLUG and repair them . OR, Just Cut OUT the

" Output Plug " from the output side of the Regulator, and SPLICE THE RED AND BLACK WIRES TOGETHER, SOLDER AND INSULATE, AND GIVE IT A RUN.

 

Point: Those TWO plugs have been the Source of about 90 percent of everybodies Charging problems. With the 1st Gen Ventures.

So what we're going to do now, is to solder all the wires, whites to whites and all the 5 colors to each other. We also elminated the ground connector close to the battery. Funny thing is, all works just fine, not great, we get about 13 volts on charging, until we plug the headlight into the circiut, and the fuse doesn't get warm, but that is when things start to go south, not real fast, but it looses a hundreth of a point on a steady basis.

Anyways, we'll put it all together now and see what transpires.

[GeorgeS]

Remember, you said the ground wire was getting HOT. That means , that the wire has high resistance,

 

Even if there is another problem on the bike (anything ) then you also have to repair that ground wire. !!!

 

Another possibility, is that After bike gets HOT, there MIGHT, be a wireing problem under the Stator Cover. ie: the wires harness connections to the STATOR Unit itself.

Maby after things get full hot, a connection is going bad.

But this is a long shot.

 

I still would OPEN up the Splices, From the Stator, where the Plug was removed previously, and check for Cold Solder Joints, ( Or Lack of Soldering ) ( Like in,-- maby ---the wires were just Twisted together, and covered with Black Tape !! )

[Neil86]

How do you have the new horn disconnected? You mentioned installing a Wolo horn and a relay.

The pink wires that went to your old horns are hot electrically anytime the key is on and the signal fuse is in, (they ground through the black to the horn button). Are they unhooked and insulated?

 

If you are going to redo the splice on the stator wires....why not heat the bike up....retest AC voltage and when unhooked to redo splices, test the stator resistance with it hot. So for resistance you would test each white to each other, and each white to ground.

The resistance will be higher than the book spec due to temperature but consistency between the windings is what you are looking for.....and hopefully not a short to ground.

[jasonm.]

I may have missed it. I did NOT see anyone state that all stator tests MUST be done w/o the white wires connected to the regulator. He said they were soldered. Did you cut them and do the tests? Ohm tests white to white should be less than .5 ohms and white to ground MUST be an OPEN= infinite resistance. The above is the 1st trouble shooting step to any , "failure to charge problem". If the stator passes these tests...it's likely the Regulator.

[GeorgeS]

I may have missed it. I did NOT see anyone state that all stator tests MUST be done w/o the white wires connected to the regulator. He said they were soldered. Did you cut them and do the tests? Ohm tests white to white should be less than .5 ohms and white to ground MUST be an OPEN= infinite resistance. The above is the 1st trouble shooting step to any , "failure to charge problem". If the stator passes these tests...it's likely the Regulator.

 

He said they tried two spare regulators allready, I just can't believe they have 3 bad regulators,

[saddlebum]

So what we're going to do now, is to solder all the wires, whites to whites and all the 5 colors to each other. We also elminated the ground connector close to the battery. Funny thing is, all works just fine, not great, we get about 13 volts on charging, until we plug the headlight into the circiut, and the fuse doesn't get warm, but that is when things start to go south, not real fast, but it looses a hundreth of a point on a steady basis.

Anyways, we'll put it all together now and see what transpires.

 

I am not a big fan of using an ohmeter to test for high resistance in a wire. all to often I have seen faulty wires pass the ohmeter test. I prefer to to load test the circuit. To do this you disconnect the wire (not the bat end) connect a volt meter to it and read the voltage connect the clamp of a test light to the negative side of the battery. while reading the voltmeter touch the other end of the test light to the voltmeter probe. If the wire is good you should not see more than a 1/2 volt drop on the meter, if it ..is bad the voltage will take a real nose dive .you can test any part of the cicuit with minor modifications this way on both ground and pos sides. another way is to use a test light as a bypass wire (do not disconnect any wires with this method ) you connect as though you were doubling up the wire you testing. Simply power up the cicuit if the wire you are testing is ok the light will not light up , if it is bad the light because it is trying to carry the load for the bad wire will light up. The worse the wire the brighter the bulb will glow.

 

I also prefer to use an ammeter to test alternator output because a voltmeter only tells you the state of the battery, not the actually condition of the alternator. an alternator can work 100 % but the battery my not be capable off taking it all.

[Wizard765]

OK latest update:

 

We took it all apart and made new plugs for the regulator 5 wire connector. I also added new ground wires for that plug. No more hot wires. Resoldered carefully the 3 white wires. Spent the whole day chasing wires and plugs. Cleaned every connection on the bike (none were bad) and added dilectric grease. Tested all three regulators and they test out fine.

 

Bob you have a good point. That is the only part of the equation that we have not addressed. Is there an armature or exciter in our bikes? Is there some other part than the stator that we are missing? What is a rotor worth?

 

Squeeze: We started the bike and then disconnected the starter from the system. Tested to see if we were getting a charge and there was no change.

 

On an off chance that I have two bad stators Carl and I drove to Uxbridge tonight and picked up a new stator from Brian (thanks Brian) and we are going to try that next. We are running out of ideas.

 

I really appreciate all the help here. You folks are AWSOME!!!

 

Wayne

[Squeeze]

A bad Rotor can occur, but it's very very seldom. The Magnets inside the Flywheel are permanent and to make them weak, you really have to hammer on the Flywheel or set it under AC Current. Extreme Heat might be an Option, but the Rotor would look blue at least and all the Main Bearings would have been gone by now.

 

At this Point, i have no further Idea other to exchange everything from the Stator up to Battery. As the Battery is proven good and it don't believe in three bad R/R, the Stator might be the Culprit. While you have the Stator Cover open, you could check ,if the "Stator Cooling Upgrade" is mounted on your Bike.

[Wizard765]

At this Point, i have no further Idea other to exchange everything from the Stator up to Battery. As the Battery is proven good and it don't believe in three bad R/R, the Stator might be the Culprit. While you have the Stator Cover open, you could check ,if the "Stator Cooling Upgrade" is mounted on your Bike.

 

 

What does a "stator cooling upgrade" look like? If there isn't one how do I get one?

 

Wayne

[GeorgeS]

??? :bang head:

 

Stator ?? Well I suppose its possible, that one of the Stator Coils has a Winding of wire, inside of , one of the coils, that is going Dead Short, After, the Engine get to full operating Temperature. ( in other words, the wire does not go shorted untill the Oil gets to full temp ) Just gessing here again.

 

So, if I was in the situation you are in at this point, I would order a NEW, AFTER Market, " Electrix " Stator, ( or whatever name they are sold under now ) and install it.

 

The Rotor, as Squeez says, ??? Hmmm, don't know what to say about that, but again, anything is possible.

 

Anybody, on the Site have a Junked out engine, might be a good Rotor sitting under sombodies work bench ---- ??????

 

Note: here, IF you find a different Rotor, on E-Bay, or somplace, be sure to Inspect all the parts of the Starter Engage Clutch, when you change the Rotor.

If bike is over 50K and that clutch has never been changed, good time to do it.

 

 

On a brighter Note: You fellows are now, much wiser Electricians !!! I know you don't want to be,

[jasonm.]

I have been in electronics for 30 years. The stator test I mention when done properly, does not lie. If you have not done it. You are likely wasting your time until you do. The failure to ground test means any resistance that is measurable means it fails. My brother's G-W stator failed. I connected the ohm meter and waited 10 seconds and slowly saw the resistance drop to 200k to 100k to 50 k and so forth. Stator replaced...all fixed for him. This showed up quicker w/ a warm engine. As the semi-short became more obvious. This is basic stuff to me. Again, tests when done properly and using the right tools do not lie. Also your '84 should have the cooling kit. Look at the flywheel bolt. Should have a pin hole in the middle. I do not know exactly when the kit was installed from the factory.

[Wizard765]

Thanks George:

 

We picked up a NEW in the box stator from Brian last night and are going to change the stator. Cannot do it now till Monday due to a Family celibration.

 

Jason:

 

We will also perform the resistance test you have described. The original stator gave us AC tests of around 6V from each white wire to ground. The stator that is in now I got from eBay a couple of years ago and was sold as a "rebuilt". It looked to be exactly that. The AC tests out to 9.4 V on each wire with that one. So I guess it is possible that my original went bad AND that the "rebuilt" one from eBay is also bad.

 

Wayne

[Squeeze]

What does a "stator cooling upgrade" look like? If there isn't one how do I get one?

 

Wayne

 

You need to undo the Center Bolt of the Rotor. There should be a Steel Wire sticking inside the Bolt. But be careful, the Bolt gets 130 Nm Torque, better use a long Tube as an Extension to open it up. You'll need a 32mm Box Wrench to hold the Rotor. The Cooling Kit Bolt has a tiny Boring in the Center of the Bolt Head.

[Neil86]

Keep in mind when you do a repair on the charging system.....chances are the battery is discharged from the previous issue. Until the battery is fully recharged, re-testing the charging voltage will be erroneous as extra current will be flowing into the battery to try and recharge it.....which will give you a lower reading and more drop when you add load if there is no more available current being shunted to ground by the rect/reg at that stator rpm.

Another test of the stator besides the resistance and short tests is AC voltage with plug unhooked. You test the 3 pairs of white to white......voltage will start around 20 V at idle and go up to approx 50-60 V (AC) at 3000 rpm.....again looking for consistency. This isolates the stator readings from being affected by anything going on in the rectifier. I believe its in the troubleshooting guide from Electrex. If the readings look good...I wouldn't replace the stator.

[jasonm.]

FYI for everyone. A stator is a single long piece of wire wrapped around "cores". The 3 wires represent the the even places along this single wire and cores where the AC electricity is syphoned off. You can do the ground test to any stator, even when not installed. JUST connect a lead from the ohm meter to the center where it bolts to the case cover. Then check to the whites. Just make sure there is no laquer coating on it. And set the meter to the highest setting. That voltage check you mention does not always show what you need to know. As different stators put out different levels of voltage at different frequencies(Hertz). Some VOMs are designed for 60Hz applications like your household electrical. The output of these stators is NOT 60Hz. Do as Neil says and I also have also seen stators put out 30 to 60 volts at the white wires on bikes. Never anything as low as you say. Which makes me wonder how you are getting such low #'s. But I have never done that test on my Venture. YOU MUST do all tests(including Neil's) at the stator wires w/o the regulator or stator wires connected to ANYTHING! Sounds like something is still connceted or you don't have the meter set to "AC volts". The OHM TEST IS THE BEST because it works on all "internal stator" designs.

Edited May 17, 2009 by jasonm.

[Marcarl]

Got up early this morning to beat the gremlins, warmed up the bike and when she was cold, she nicely gave me 14 volts, as she warmed the voltage dropped, did the AC volt test from wire to wire, unhooked, with the results being 48 to 50 volts on all counts. Shut the beast off, did a ground test and got continuity on all three wires to ground, battery to wire end. Now am replacing the stator, shouldn't take long, maybe have time to help out Bob today,,,sure wish he was closer.

[Marcarl]

Got 'er done. Bad stator, ground problem,,,now we ride

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHOOOOOOOOO