Electrical Gremlin

[Marcarl]

Got a funny one. Installed a brand new set of horns, Bad Boys to exact, put them in the faring, right side, right behind the grill and tied them in with cable ties, So far so Good. Wired them according to specks. Used the original horn wire for the primary side of the relay, ran a new line from the accessory post to the secondary side of the relay, then to the horn and then to ground. I did that right EH? Well so I thought as well. Tested it and boy does that give off some sound, real nice, all done, on to the next project. In the process I needed to fire up the engine. Turned on the ignition, pushed the kill switch to run, pulled in the clutch lever and pushed the start button, and low and behold there wasn't a soul in front of the scoot anymore (not that there were any to start with), the sound coming from the horns was totally unexpected and a way too loud for a confinded space, but the scoot was running, so glory be. had to shut all that racket off so I turned the ignition off and all was quiet, good so far, at least that worked, but now to try that again, let's see,,,carefully turn on the ignition, yep ok there,,,hit the start button and WWoww, them there horns done wake a person right up from down under,,,,turn the ignition off again and am now perplexed,,,,well ,,,,,took out the fuse and through the test all was quiet,, what a blessing, I was having thoughts of needing a new radio just to be able to hear my tunes over all the constant noise,,,and somebody said to put two off those thingies on my machine???????are they nuts,,,,,,,not on mine if they're going to be going off constantly. Went to the laundry to wash off last years leftovers and when I got back I thought I had enough guts to try that fuse once more. Sure enough, put the fuse in, carefully turned on the ignition,,,you never know eH,,,,,,,and then hit the start button,,,,now it got me totally confused,,,,everything worked perfect,,,,,now how am I going to find out what went haywire. Three days later,,, it's still good,,,,,,,but if you hear someone coming down the street with his horn going full blast,,, get the coffee ready,, it'll be me and I'll be looking for some help

[bongobobny]

Uhhh, the horn switch switches GROUND on and off. Where are ylou getting the =12 volts for the primary? Make sure you are aplying the switched ground lead from the stock horn, and that the horn switch isn't shorted.

[bobcat]

This won't be much help but I felt like adding my 2 cents worth, EH ( a little Canadan talk)

About 90% of my electrical problems was either a bad ground or bad connection, EH

I guess that's why we call them gremlins..sometimes for some unexplained reason they fix themselves but when they do that you feel like when's the other shoe going to drop.....

[GeorgeS]

Draw up a Schematic, of Exactly, how you wired it. Not how you thought it should be wired, ---

 

Not how sombody told you to do it. But exactly how you did it.

 

Take photo of the schematic, and post it.

 

As I understand your posting, when you turned the ignition to ON, the Horn Blew. ??

 

Did you rewire Just the New horn , and remove the stock horn. ???

 

OR, did you rewire, both the New and Old stock horn Via the New Relay ??

 

 

He He He Hi Hi Hi, Old retired electricians, live for stuff like this, I know ,

" Non Electricians " think that is Pervese !!! But, thats how we made a liveing, chaceing down wayward Electrons !!!

 

Don't feel to bad, we Electricians, Understand :stirthepot:

[BradT]

He He He Hi Hi Hi, Old retired electricians, live for stuff like this, I know ,

" Non Electricians " think that is Pervese !!! But, thats how we made a liveing, chaceing down wayward Electrons !!!

 

I agree, and I hate them little buggers just his friend Murphy !

 

Brad

[Marcarl]

All is well that ends well and so far it's welllllllllll,,,,,,,, when will this Happen again,,or will it.

Sorry, no good at that drawing of pictures thing, but I'll lay it out so you can draw your own picture. This thing has had me wondering for 3 days now, and it has not frustrated me yet, but I can't seem to come up with a logical answer and I thought there might be some else that would join me in the pool.

There is only 1 (one) horn, the Bad Boy, bought in another other country, it has positive and negative posts.

There is 1 (one) horn button, the original, with the original wires attached and they go to the primary side of the just newly installed relay that came with the horn.

All connections are of the insulated type.

The horn is connected to the secondary side of the relay, the live wire #14 coming straight from the accessory terminal to the relay with no detours.

The other side of the horn goes to ground on the frame.

All was OK until I push the starter button, then the fun began. Not with the ignition,,, no it was the starter button.

[ToRide1]

Electrical Gremlin's, your gonna have to call in an exorcist for that one.

[bongobobny]

I guess the horn was being a "Bad Boy" Carl...

[scotty]

Near as I can figure, this is what he built.

IF that is the case I was wondering if it is getting a voltage drop through the original horns dropping the relay? There are a lot of other loads on that circuit.

You may have to rewire the original horns like pic 2.

Just guessing here as it is hard to see those electrons from this distance.

[Monty]

OK, being an Electronic Engineer, I made up a simple schematic depicting the way it should be done. According to your description, you wired it right.

 

When you turn on your key, you energize the relay coil, and it stays energized as long as the key is on. When you push the button, you complete the path to the horn, energizing it momentarily. The only thing I can think of, based on your description, is that the horn button was sticking on you. I would need to see a shematic of the bikes' wiring harness to accurately say whether or not you wired it correctly for your bike.

 

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i274/13thAFMonterey/NewHornSch.jpg

[Marcarl]

Guess I'll have to take a look at drawing a picture I can inderstand. Post back tomorrow when I get that accomplshed.

Carl

[Ivan]

I would bet you have a problem with back feeding through the primary circuit from the starting circuit somewhere.

 

Take the leads off the primary side. As I understand it one should have power with the switch on, and the other should have a ground when the horn button is pushed. On that wire, put your test light on and see if it lights up when you hit the starter button.

 

Also, some relays are made so the power from the secondary positive is also the power to the primary, and the terminal that activates it is a ground. If you have a relay with less than 5 terminals, I would suspect this to be that kind. If you have power to the secondary side from the start circuit, this could explain the problem.

[MiCarl]

I would bet you have a problem with back feeding through the primary circuit from the starting circuit somewhere.

 

Me too, but I just looked at the wiring diagram and it sure seems like there is no place for that to happen. EXCEPT - there were originally 2 horns, with 2 connections on each side of the motorcycle, anything funny connected to the other side?

 

 

Also, some relays are made so the power from the secondary positive is also the power to the primary, and the terminal that activates it is a ground. If you have a relay with less than 5 terminals, I would suspect this to be that kind. If you have power to the secondary side from the start circuit, this could explain the problem.

 

The relay that comes with the Bad Boy horn is just a plain SPST relay. 2 terminals on the primary, 2 on the secondary. Separate power on each half.

[Monty]

Guess I'll have to take a look at drawing a picture I can inderstand. Post back tomorrow when I get that accomplshed.

Carl

 

OK, when you turn the key on, the relay coil is energized, closing the secondary circuit.(look where it says K1). It makes the connection between points 1 and 7, thereby allowing you to have a fully closed circuit between ground and the power source, via the horn, while pushing the button. Really, the only good reason for a relay in this circuit, is to disable the horn when the key is off.

 

I need to see a schematic of the bike, as what others are saying about closing the ground circuit makes the most sense. I drew it up this way, because you said the horn had a wire on it connecting to ground. I'll get back to you after I dig it up.

[Monty]

OK. As you see here in the schematic, the horn button applies the ground. I think there may be a problem with the relay latching on sometimes. I really need to see how you actually wired it, or at least take some pictures of it all.

 

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i274/13thAFMonterey/HornDrawing.jpg

[Marcarl]

Ok so here's how it's wired. I didn't include the colors of the wires. Except for the switch wires, witch are the original horn wires, it's all 14 ga with crimmped terminals.

[bongobobny]

. Really, the only good reason for a relay in this circuit, is to disable the horn when the key is off.

 

 

No, the amount of current the horn draws would fry the horn switch contacts in no time...

[GeorgeS]

You have the wireing correct.!!!

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

As to how the Start Button, may have been causeing the horn to blow. ??????

 

---- The only thing the Start Button does, is APPLY A GROUND, to the small wire comeing OFF of the Start Solinoid ---

 

At this point, the only thing I would suspect would be the New Relay itself.

 

It Might be defective in some way, ie. the Contacts Stuck in the Closed Position, causeing the Horn to Blow.

 

Suppliers of Aftermarket Electrical devices, that require a Relay, are Known to Include " Low Quality " components.

 

If it happens again, I would get a " Bosh " relay, avialable from most auto parts suppliers, or replace the relay.

 

You mentioned you " taped the wires " ??? Did you " Solder All Connections " before tapeing them ??

 

Any Electrical repairs on a motorcycle, should be Soldered, and then Insulated with " Heat Shrink " tubeing on splices.

 

Any End stud connectors, used, should be " Crimped " then " soldered " and also a good idea to Apply Heat Shrink tube, for good measure.

[GeorgeS]

However, I would take the Main Power supply for the horn a little differently.

 

Install an " IN-Line " 10 or 15 Amp fuse ( whatever the new horn mfg. calls for ) Directly from the Battery, ( or the output side of the Main Fuse ) Run this directly to the New Relay. ( # 16 or #14 wire, Stranded ). Now if you decide to install TWO electric horns, you have plenty of current carrying capacity. )

 

Also, with this method, you are NOT drawing any extra current Thru the Ignition Switch " ON - OFF " contacts. ( As this is a know problem on these bikes )

 

Then, take power from the Accessory fuse, to the Horn button, to the Relay Control coil, and then to ground ( #18 wire good for this run )

[Monty]

I just don't see it working correctly, if that last schematic I posted from the manual is right. You must have completely rewired the switch and horn.

 

According to the schematic, the button is in series with a ground circuit (wire comes from ground, then thru switch, then to ground side of horn), so that when you push the button, you complete the ground circuit, allowing current to flow from ground, thru the switch, then thru the horn coil, and back to the voltage source.

 

You have it wired from voltage source to switch, then thru relay primary coil to ground. You would have had to completely rewired everything to do that.

[Monty]

No, the amount of current the horn draws would fry the horn switch contacts in no time...

 

 

I forgot the aftermarket horn draws more current than the stock one...duh.

[Vance]

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i274/13thAFMonterey/NewHornSch.jpg

 

If you wired it this way, all the current for the horn is going through the horn switch. That's not preferred. You want the current going through the horn switch to close the contacts in the relay that will send current from the battery to the horn. In other words, the switch should operate the relay, and the relay should allow voltage to the horn.

[Monty]

Yes. Like I said, I had forgot he was using a horn that drew more amps than stock.

 

Look at the drawing from the factory manual, and then look at his drawing, and tell me it's the same.

[MiCarl]

Marcarl, something about your drawing doesn't look right. In particular, in the stock horn configuration the switch is on the ground side, not the hot side.

 

Here is a method that will work:

 

Plug the primary side of the relay into the harness where the stock horns plug in. I don't remember the numbers on the relay, but they are the poles that the wiring diagram indicates you run the switch to. (85 & 86?)

 

Now run a fused + from the battery to one of the secondary posts (30?). I think Wolo says use a 20A fuse, but I run a pair on 1 15A fuse.

 

The remaining pole on the relay (87?) goes to the air horn +.

 

The - on the air horn goes to your frame ground.

Edited March 29, 2009 by MiCarl

[GeorgeS]

Marcarl, something about your drawing doesn't look right. In particular, in the stock horn configuration the switch is on the ground side, not the hot side.

 

Here is a method that will work:

 

Plug the primary side of the relay into the harness where the stock horns plug in. I don't remember the numbers on the relay, but they are the poles that the wiring diagram indicates you run the switch to. (85 & 86?)

 

Now run a fused + from the battery to one of the secondary posts (30?). I think Wolo says use a 20A fuse, but I run a pair on 1 15A fuse.

 

The remaining pole on the relay (87?) goes to the air horn +.

 

The - on the air horn goes to your frame ground.

 

 

This Schematic is Correct !!!!! ------------As, MiCarl posted above, his attachment