Engine rattle update

[Venturous Randy]

As I noted in an earlier post, I have had a rattle in the engine when it is tilted over on the side stand. I have come to the conclusion that is gear related because if I tilt the bike over and then put it in gear, the rattle stops. Therefore I did a tear down on my 86 1300 engine and I think I will use the entire gearset out of it. I would just rebuild the engine, but there are some pretty deep pitting in the cylinder bores on a couple of cylinders, so I guess I will stay with my 1200 engine.

A concern I have switching out the gearsets is there are shims on the side of the bearing that is at the 90 degree set of gears that go out the rear of the engine. Actually there are shims near where the u joint is and also shims on the inside of the bearing where the little gear cover is. I know that these shims are what set the engagement at that 90 degree angle. I have not compared the shims from my 1200 engine because I have not got it out yet. I guess I could put it together and see how much free play that I have.

I am wondering if this has anything to do with the thrust washer being worn out again, but I have yet to have any skipping during acceleration or pulling hard in 2nd gear since I did the gear undercut about 60,000 miles ago. I have had it skip a couple of times during high rpm 2nd gear deceleration. This was also with pulling a 450 pound camper up and down mountains. For those of you that are not aware, I did not replace the thrust washer with the newer, harder and thicker replacement because I did not know the new one had been upgraded. This was about eight years ago or more. I just flipped it over. It has so far given me 50% more miles than the original set up did.

So, is there anyone out there that has done an entire gear change out and had gear mesh concerns? Good or bad, I would like to hear from you.

I need to get this all done soon because I want to do it before I go to Vogal and that is coming up fast.

Muffinman, I think you are right in your earlier comments. Is there anything in particular that I need to look for?

RandyA

[Squeeze]

Hi,

 

the Gear Lash in the 90* angled Middle Drive is setted by Shims under the three Bolts on the Outgoing Port to U-Joint and Driveshaft.

 

Althought i know two Guys who have done a mixed Setup, i sincerly do not recommend to mix those Gears. They are sold by Yammi in a Pair and that's by a Cause. They where fabricated to fit the opposite Gear. If there is going something wrong, the rear Wheel will lock up and this will cause serious Damage to Bike and Driver.

 

The Shims will fit from other Engines, no matter if 1200cc or 1300 cc.

 

If i understand you Posting right, you plan to take the 1200cc out, open it up and replace that Tranny with the Unit from the 1300cc Engine. If so, you have to utilize the Set with U-Joint and angled Gear from the 1300cc. Set the right Lash and put it together. I also recommend to replace at least the 2nd Gear Shiftfork.

 

This may lead you to another Problems, because the '83 Driveshaft seems to be somehow different to the '86 Driveshafts, i don't know if the U-Joints are the same, but if so, this is what i would do. If the Driveshaft and rear End won't fit, i'd rather go with newer Replacements than to mess with different Gears in the angled Gears. This could get very dangerous.

[Venturous Randy]

Squeeze, you have made some good points. First of all, the difference in the drive shaft is on the differential end. The drive shaft is inserted more into the differential and therefore is about an inch longer. This was part of the lube change. In the engine , the drive shaft area appears to be the same on the 1200 and 1300.

As you noted, the shims is there for gear lash, but basically this is for gear and housing variation in machining from one unit to the other, just typical production variation. As far as there being sudden catastrophic failure, this is not likely, because if there are gear lash problems, it will generally cause more of a whine than anything. That is unless it was loaded way too tight and cause a bearing failure. But again, that is what the slack is for. I have been involved in racing and high performance cars all my life and have "been there, done that" dealing with differential set ups.

You made a good point in replacing the 2nd gear fork. I had to straighten the one in the 1200 about eight years ago when I did the undercut on 2nd gear and 5th gear. It was actually bent from where 2nd gear had been jumping and I redid mine probably a lot earlier than some of these guys have. I actually plan on changing all the shifting mechanism from the 86 engine.

The shims that I do not remember seeing on the 1200 engine are on the inside of the bearing you can see when you take off the side gear cover. This appears to set the relationship of the gear axle that have 2nd and 5th slide. They may be there and I just don't remember them. That was about eight years ago.

When splitting the case, I did remember there was one more thing that had to be removed before it would come apart that the manual does not show and that is the three Phillips head screws holding the bearing cap on under the clutch basket.

Thanks for the input.

RandyA

[sgn]

Randy

You need an assistant? I owe you.

 

Steve

[Squeeze]

Hi Randy,

 

thanks for your Input on the Driveshafts.

 

I had and have also some Expierence with Differentials on Trucks, Cars and similar Units in hydraulic driven Transmissions. I agree with you, when saying that when there is something wrong with the Gears, it will result in a Whine in first Place. But, it is not always that you can hear the Gears whine before they go South. Sometimes it sounds just one Time, a hard, metallic sounding "WHACK" ....

 

As you read my Posting, i did mention that i know Guys which mixed those Gears and i do not say this can't be done and isn't working, but for me, it's just a Bit too unsecure and against my personal Responsibilty. No one could or would held me responsible for a Recommendation on a Internet-Board ... no One ? Ok, maybe no One besides myself.

 

As for the Shim beyond the big Roller Bearing. All Vmax Engines i've opened so far, that might have been 5 or 6, have had one of those Shims between outer Race and the Casing. Some where 0.5 mm thick, other's only 0.3 mm, if i remember right. I didn't question them for what Purpose they ought to be.

I just hate them, because it's quite tricky to put the Casing together without rumpleing one half of this Shim. At least, this is a Problem when you only open the lower Casing and need to mount the Casing from upside down.

Maybe Yammi did bring those Shims in, when they tried to cure the 2nd Gear Issue. The Vmax-Motor was designed in '84/'85, when they have learned their first Lessons in 2nd Gear Issues. Since yours is a '83, it just might not have been there at that Time.

 

I did manage this Issue by setting the Axle a bit too far (more or less 1 mm) outside the designated Place and after i put the Casing togehter, a minor Hit with the Sandhammer to get the whole Axle in back in Place. Then tightend the 4 Bolts on the Middle Gear-Side and these 3 hated Philips-Bolts on the Clutch-Side. I recommend to undo them, when the Engine is still in Place, as i find them very hard to open when i had the Motor on the Bench.

[Venturous Randy]

Thanks Squeeze as this is exactly the type comments I was hoping for. As I said, it has been over eight years since I had mine apart. It also makes a big difference to me that at that time I had virtually no other help in doing this. The local Yamaha shop was absolutely clueless about anything about these transmissions. I did have a local independent cycle shop that would occasionally redo these transmissions by replacing everything and he was the one that suggested the undercut that I did on 2nd gear because he was doing this on some race bikes.

The other big difference now is I have you guys. Then, I did not have a computer nor Internet. I am hoping that anyone that has done a 1300 trans swap into a 1200 will jump in with their experiences. Also, since I do not actually know what is causing the rattle, it might be something I could fix and keep the 1200 gear set. I would though replace the thrust washer.

RandyA

[PEIslander]

Randya,

 

I'm wondering if the thrust washers have finally worn through since your still using the originals. If so this may be allowing extra play in the tranny. I would remove the small cover on the left side of the engine and inspect the retainers and thrust washer. The undercut on the second gear may be keeping it engaged even though the thrust washers are worn.

 

Just my 2cents. Keep us up to date.

 

Rick

[Gambler]

Randy

Let us know how this progresses, I also have a transmission

from a 1300 that I am considering installing at a later date

Gambler:080402gudl_prv:

[Venturous Randy]

I should have it out tomorrow. All the gear stuff out of the 1300 engine looks real good. It is just a shame that the cylinder bores were so pitted from where it had gotten rained in before I got it.

If everything goes good, I think I will double check the valve clearances and maybe chain guide condition. I will also check if mine has the plastic impeller in the water pump. I may also try to get my solid motor mounts made and change them, or at least the rear ones.

Anyway, I hope by tomorrow evening I will be able to give a good update on what the problem is. It would be something if the thrust washer was worn out and with the undercut that I did on 2nd gear, it never jumped one time under a lot of load.

RandyA

[Venturous Randy]

Got the engine out this morning. That was a major job in itself. Even though I drained the oil and took the bottom bolt out of the gear case cover, I still had a half quart oil run out of the engine when I turned it over. And a lot of coolant.

When I took the oil pan off, the first thing that I noticed was the large o-ring that is where the oil pipe goes back into the engine was blown out. It looked like an orange worm sticking up out of the side of the pipe. I looked at the engine lubrication system in the manual and this is a MAJOR part of the oil feeding system.

When I split the case I still had something holding it and it turned out to be the clutch slave cylinder. Got that taken care of and it came apart. My first inspection was to look very closely to see if it appeared that any gears had been floating and banging against each other causing the rattle. Could not tell. I did find a visually bent fork that could have contributed to misalignment. I also believe it was not the 2nd gear fork, but I will recheck.

Given my concern on gear mesh, I measured the two shims at the large bearing that is near the gear case cover. Both gear sets appeared to have identical shim thickness. That made me feel a little better. With the gear sets in place, I also pushed the output angled gear in( the one with the U-joint) and the slack seemed about the same on both units and about the same as it was when I took it apart. The real test will be when everything is torqued in place.

Given my concern with possible oil pressure related problems due to the blown o-ring, I not only looked at the crankshaft bearing surface, but also took a rod cap off and looked at that bearing. All looked amazingly good for an engine with 108,000 miles on it, oil pressure problem or not. One other concern with this o-ring is these engines have oil pressure activated timing chain tensioners. It is the oil pressure that causes the chain tensioner to take up any slack in the chain with a little piston that pushes on the chain tensioner. If it was running with very low oil pressure, and it believe I was, the noise could have been coming from the timing chain not being tight. And, when the bike was leaned over on the side stand, the chain may have been trying to climb up on the teeth.

One interesting point on the 1300 2nd gear dogs, they are undercut. The base of the dogs is visually more narrow than the top of the dogs. It actually appears that both sides of the dog is tapered inward, so that would help in both accelerating and coasting down. I have not been able to determine if the female side of 5th gear, the matching gear is also undercut.

At this point I am confident I am doing what is needed. Even though the bike was not jumping in 2nd gear under wide open throttle, or pulling a 450 pound camper, it had jumped a couple of times under downshifting at a bit high RPM. So I know I was on the verge of having thrust washer wear problems.

My 1200 engine also had the plastic water pump impeller, so I am changing that out. In fact, all the gaskets came apart without tearing, except for the water pump housing gasket, and both engines tore at the same points. The Yamaha shop in the next town over has one in stock for about $5. The local shop near my house does not carry anything. I think I will also replace the clutch rod seal.

I am also going to do a quick check on the valve clearances since I have good access.

So, at this point, I feel pretty good about everything and am anxious to get it back together and put a few miles on it before taking off to Vogal pulling the camper. I just hope what I am doing will take care of the rattle.

If anyone has any other suggestions or comments, they are appreciated.

RandyA

[Squeeze]

Hi Randy,

 

the O-Ring-Problem is a common known Issue on the Maxxes. You can cure that with a custom made Washer or a Circlip between O-Ring and the Oil-Tube which fits in the Boring. If you want to do the Job 100 Percent, you need a Retainer out of a Sheet of Metall, 1.5 mm thick, which is bolted under one of the Crankshaft Bolts and holds the Tubing in Place and under slight Pressure. See the Attached Drawing. Sorry, but the Measurements are in Millimeter.

http://www.gkvgmbh.de/imgsq/Vmax/Retainer_Oiltubings.jpg

 

The best Source for complete and compiled Information about this Issue is here. http://www.angelfire.com/ia/z/vmaxoilring.htm

 

Your Theory about the Spring Tensioner and Oilpressure is impressive. I would't say you got THE Answer, but the Facts are lined up correct and you can be right with that Idea.

 

If i where you, i would replace the 2nd Gear Shiftfork anyways. It is not that expensive, but it is hard to determine if the Ones you have are a bit weak, worn or bend. On a Friends Fj1200, we hardly could only see any Difference between his old worn and the new Shiftfork. As a Matter of Fact, his Tranny jumped out before we replaced the Part and did not do that afterwards. It's a Matter of only minimal Wear and Bend.

 

The Fact that the 1300 Tranny is undercut is quite interresting. Maybe a previous Owner has had to open the Casing and did this in wise Foresight?

[Venturous Randy]

Wow Squeeze, that was some really interesting information on the orange o-ring. Mine was not only blown out, but it was broken and sticking out like a worm. I also did not see any dampener on either engine. Is this only a V-max part or do Ventures have these?

I really appreciate you sharing this with me. I just put the pan back on today with using the o-ring off the 1300 engine. Now I don't know what to do.

RandyA

[Squeeze]

Hi Randy,

 

probably, you can measure the Distance between Oilpan and Oil-Rig when the Pan is setted, but nor bolted down. Maxbe, some Wax or Plasticine could help you to determine if there is Room for a Damper or not.

 

Afaik, the Damper is on all Vmax-Engines. As for the Ventures, i don't know this, but the 1200cc Venture ist Mother of the Vmax-Motor, why shouldn't it be there also ? Did you check the Yamaha IPC for Reference ?

 

http://www.starmotorcycles.com/star/parts/home.aspx

 

and choose what you want to have showed.

 

As i checked the '83, there are 2 Grommets listed in the Oil-Filter Sheet, Pos# 12 and # 13. #12 should be the One under the Tube, which should hold the culprit O-Ring in Place.

 

If i where you, i'd go with the modified Circlip Solution and a new standard Yammi-O-Ring. And place the Retainer i mentioned as an Add-On. But i know you are in a Hurry, going to Vogel.

 

As the Motor did run a long Time without having this fixed, i don't see why you in desperate Need of fixing that. Go to Vogel, enjoy Life and fix it when you have everything on the Bench. Not a hard Job to do, even when to Engine is in Place. There are a Lot of Discussions on the Internet, whether this Problem is real or not. I believe, there is one or maybe two damaged Engines, which the O-Ring could blamed for not being in Place, but on the Vmaxes, there are 90 Percent of those Rings out of Place. It is a Problem, yes, if you're working on it, fix it. But there is no need to panic.

[Venturous Randy]

Squeeze, you might notice that I started another thread specifically on the o-ring issue. Again, thanks for the link you provided.

BTW, I think my situation may have been worse than the o-ring just being bulged out. That still at least gave some resistance on the oil pressure. With mine sticking out like a worm, there had to be a significant gap.

RandyA

[Squeeze]

Squeeze, you might notice that I started another thread specifically on the o-ring issue. Again, thanks for the link you provided.

BTW, I think my situation may have been worse than the o-ring just being bulged out. That still at least gave some resistance on the oil pressure. With mine sticking out like a worm, there had to be a significant gap.

RandyA

 

Hey Randy,

 

there is nothing to thank for.

 

I agree with you, the Gap of a bulged O-Ring is significant smaller than your bulged and broken O-Ring did open.

 

Probably your Theory about the less or not pressurised Chain-Tensioners and the Loss of Oilflow, caused by that huge Gap is right.

 

But there is Good News. As you mentioned, the main Bearings and the Conrod-bearings are not affected, and this is really good News.

 

I keep my Fingers crossed and hope that your bring everything togehter and working before it's Time to leave for Vogel. Especially, bringing the lower Casing back on and everthing working is a very tricky Job. Better you should have six Arms and 20 Fingers each, Wire, Pincers and cold blooded Hands. Once you made that, it's just wrenching and a Matter of Time.

[Gearhead]

What's the damper?

 

Can this o-ring be accessed by pulling the pan with the engine in the bike? Is it just behind the oil filter?

 

Randy, what did you do? Replaced o-ring I know; did you replace the transmission gearsets? Split the cases, then?

 

Jeremy

[Venturous Randy]

Yes Jeremy, I did replace the gear set out of the 1300 engine that I had. I also just used the orange o-ring out of that engine. If you remove the pan, which I believe you can do on our bikes while still in the frame, the area where the o-ring is very visable. It would be something to consider the next time you change your oil. At most it may cost you an oil pan gesket.

RandyA

[Venturous Randy]

As of the moment, the engine is bolted in and the rear exhaust is bolted up. Still got a lot to do and want to spend some time repolishing some of the cases. Engine went in real easy, considering I did it all by myself.

To help get the engine in, I used my large floor jack with a large thick board that I mount on it. I also used the spare oil pan to put some more wood on to snugly nest the oilpan in place. I then used pull down straps to hold the engine real good to the jack. It was just a matter of wiggling it in place and bolting it in. I did have to raise the front wheel a little to get the jack and boards out.

Well, now it is time to go to work.

RandyA

[Gearhead]

Good luck, Randy.

 

So what's this damper you guys are referring to?

 

Thanks,

Jeremy

[Squeeze]

Hi,

 

there is (should be) a rubber Damper between the Tube on which the culprit O-Ring is attached to and the Oilpan. Seems that this part disappeared on both of Randy's Engines. This Rubber should press the Tube upwards and hold the Tube in Place. If there is nothing, the Tube is forced downwards by the Oilpressure and the O-Ring bulges out. Once there is only an small Piece of the O-Ring outside, there is no Way back.

 

Part-Number of the Damper is 26H-15366-00-00 Grommet, it is #13 in the Yammi IPC of the '83 XVZ12TK, Oilpump-Sheet. Number 10 in that Sheet is the culprit O-Ring.