Down shifting

[autopilot]

And a worse Fuel Consumption.

 

While i agree, a blip on the Throttle makes me feel going easier on the Tranny, from the pure technical Point of View, it's not necessary. It's a bad Habit, easy to learn and very hard to lose.

 

I disagree in part. Yes the mileage will suffer but to a very small extent. Blipping the throttle to equalize the rpm to the road speed in the next gear is std procedure for virtually every manual shift vehicle I can remember. Not a bad habit in the least. Downshifting without blipping the throttle, I would condsider, is a bad habit. I kills the clutch wearing surfaces, is a very jerky/unsmooth method. Especially with these bikes having such wide ratio transmissions, if you have to nail it to get out of someones way and you're more than one gear away from where you need to be, that could be a major problem.

 

You always want to be in whatever gear the roadspeed demands at an rpm that will allow you to remove yourself from danger if necessary.

[Squeeze]

I disagree in part. Yes the mileage will suffer but to a very small extent. Blipping the throttle to equalize the rpm to the road speed in the next gear is std procedure for virtually every manual shift vehicle I can remember. Not a bad habit in the least. Downshifting without blipping the throttle, I would condsider, is a bad habit. I kills the clutch wearing surfaces, is a very jerky/unsmooth method. Especially with these bikes having such wide ratio transmissions, if you have to nail it to get out of someones way and you're more than one gear away from where you need to be, that could be a major problem.

 

You always want to be in whatever gear the roadspeed demands at an rpm that will allow you to remove yourself from danger if necessary.

 

There is nothing to equalize from Road Speed to Engine Rpm or the other Way around.

 

What you describe is helping the Tranny to synchronize different RpM of the Tranny Gears without causing to much wear on the Tips of the Gears or the Synchronizing Rings in a standard Automobile Tranny.

 

But we have no automobile Tranny here. All Gears on both Shafts are meshed all the Time. There are Dogs on the Side of each Gear which transfer Engine Load to the Gear Set selected. When you shift from one Gear to another the Shift Forks simply move one Gear out of Dog Connection and engage another Gear Sets Dogs. This is called a Cassette Transmission.

 

So, because all gears are meshed all the Time, there is no need to synchronize RpM Differences and therefore nothing is gained when blipping the Throttle.

 

The Consumption will suffer not only a bit, because every Time you blip the Throttle, there's a huge Amount of Fuel sucked into the Engine. To test this, just connect a Fuel Bottle to the Bike while synchronizing the Carbs. You won't believe the Consumption you will see.

 

I agree on your last Sentence.

[painterman67]

My wife just recently took the riders safety course. If you didn't downshift on sertain manivers the would fail you. These are the guys payed to teach us how to be safe.

 

 

Also , just check the manual on my first gen and it actually states to downshift as needed through the declining speeds to stop with the bike remaining in first at stop.

 

 

hope this helps

David

[autopilot]

I understand what you're saying about the operation of the trans., Squeeze ....But, it has no bearing on what I'm talking about. Maybe it's the terminology I'm using that is throwing you off.

 

What I'm saying is that you do need to equalize/change/increase the engine rpm to the road speed you are at, for the gear that you are going into! The rpm required for 40 mph in 5th gear is less than the rpm required for 40 mph in 4th gear (or 3rd for that matter). If you don't "blip" the throttle to raise the rpm for the downmshift and simply clutch and down shift without raising the rpm (using the throttle), you are going to drag the clutch causing additional unneccessary wear to the clutch, until the engine speed has increased to accomodate the combination of gear and roadspeed, due only to clutch friction. Plus, not using throttle as I described make the downshift much more abrupt/harsh than it needs to be, potentially causing the rider to put him/herself in the very situation they were trying to avoid!

 

The issue I'm discussing has nothing to do with gear synchronization in the trans. I'm talking road speed vs gear selected vs rpm for that gear at that speed; That and it's impact on being able to safely remove oneself from a hazardous traffic situation, by using that specific technique-----being in the correct gear, at the right rpm, for the road speed being traveled.

 

And I have to say that even if the fuel consumption is more (I still get ~40mpg doing it my way), I would readily waste the fuel, rather than (A) being in the wrong gear at the wrong time and/or (B)Having to endure the cost of replacing a clutch before it's time, because of accelerated wear.

 

You said you agreed with my last sentence, which was: "You always want to be in whatever gear the roadspeed demands at an rpm that will allow you to remove yourself from danger if necessary." I, for myself, don't know of any technique other than the one I described (and use), that will allow you to do that job in a smooth, safe manner.

 

Now Squeeze, I gather from some of your other posts over the time I've been a member here, that you have a lot of experience racing (I believe that's true) and it could very well be that there is something in the techniques that you would use that I would not be aware of, or know about, since I'm just a plain old everyday bike guy. I don't know! What I do know is that the technique I and evidently others use is logical, it's safe and it works. For the purpose intended, I will continue to use and recommend it to other riders, for the reasons I stated.

[Caveman]

I'm not picking on the Harley's and the newest one I have owned was a 1978 but the gears in that bike were not synchronized so you would get some grinding from time to time when down shifting.

 

Other than that I agree with everyone else.

 

I'm going to have to look at my manual. What is that down shifting only at 16 mph business? First I ever heard of that.

 

Jerry

 

Did I mention he ownes an HD Fat Boy? I guess that was important.

[davecb]

Let me add that if you downshift at too high RPM's, the rear tire can break loose....Especially if you are doing it at a time when you need to stop fast. ie...a cager pulling out in front of you. You should kearn to downshift and apply the brakes at the same time.. You WILL stop faster... Nuff said...

[az1103]

I am surprised that such a silly idea even brought so many responses. I've been downshifting everything that could be shifted for about 50 years!!! I think that not doing it is irresponsible and unsafe.

[Squeeze]

I understand what you're saying about the operation of the trans., Squeeze ....But, it has no bearing on what I'm talking about. Maybe it's the terminology I'm using that is throwing you off.

 

What I'm saying is that you do need to equalize/change/increase the engine rpm to the road speed you are at, for the gear that you are going into! The rpm required for 40 mph in 5th gear is less than the rpm required for 40 mph in 4th gear (or 3rd for that matter). If you don't "blip" the throttle to raise the rpm for the downmshift and simply clutch and down shift without raising the rpm (using the throttle), you are going to drag the clutch causing additional unneccessary wear to the clutch, until the engine speed has increased to accomodate the combination of gear and roadspeed, due only to clutch friction. Plus, not using throttle as I described make the downshift much more abrupt/harsh than it needs to be, potentially causing the rider to put him/herself in the very situation they were trying to avoid!

 

The issue I'm discussing has nothing to do with gear synchronization in the trans. I'm talking road speed vs gear selected vs rpm for that gear at that speed; That and it's impact on being able to safely remove oneself from a hazardous traffic situation, by using that specific technique-----being in the correct gear, at the right rpm, for the road speed being traveled.

 

And I have to say that even if the fuel consumption is more (I still get ~40mpg doing it my way), I would readily waste the fuel, rather than (A) being in the wrong gear at the wrong time and/or (B)Having to endure the cost of replacing a clutch before it's time, because of accelerated wear.

 

You said you agreed with my last sentence, which was: "You always want to be in whatever gear the roadspeed demands at an rpm that will allow you to remove yourself from danger if necessary." I, for myself, don't know of any technique other than the one I described (and use), that will allow you to do that job in a smooth, safe manner.

 

Now Squeeze, I gather from some of your other posts over the time I've been a member here, that you have a lot of experience racing (I believe that's true) and it could very well be that there is something in the techniques that you would use that I would not be aware of, or know about, since I'm just a plain old everyday bike guy. I don't know! What I do know is that the technique I and evidently others use is logical, it's safe and it works. For the purpose intended, I will continue to use and recommend it to other riders, for the reasons I stated.

 

Sorry, it seems i misunderstood your first Posting. Seen from the mechanically Point of View it's still a bad Habit and a Waste of Fuel.

 

You're right, blipping the Throttle helps evening out Differences between Road Speed and RpM of the Motor. I agree, the Clutch has to take more Burden of those Differences without keeping the Motor on a higher Revelation. But these Clutches are designed to do so and the the additional Wear on the Clutch Parts involved may be ... 2 or 4 Percent ?

 

This is mostly because our Motors don't have a big Displacement and therefore they don't bring up as much Engine Braking Force as a i.e. bigger V2 Motor. The bigger Consumption does outweight an earlier Replacement of the Clutch by far. The smoother Operation is a valid Point.

[FozzyUSN]

The only hardship you could put on the trans would be downshifting to 1st or 2nd and the bike is still moving at 50+. I would not want to see the shrapnel left behind on that one.

[Squeeze]

The only hardship you could put on the trans would be downshifting to 1st or 2nd and the bike is still moving at 50+. I would not want to see the shrapnel left behind on that one.

 

Aint gonna happen.

 

There is a Actuator/preloaded Spring Mechanism on the Output Shaft which prevents locking up the the Drivetrain if either the Wheel or the Motor locks up. I never will forget the Sound of the Actuator Cam disengaging, but it works fine.

[GeorgeS]

I don't use downshifting for Stopping Fast !!

 

I mainly use it, to get the RPM's " UP " when I see an approaching situation where I "" Might "" need more power to accellerate !!

 

ie. Building traffic situations, any approaching turn, topping hills, long downgrades on mountain roads, long upgrades, any blind approaching turn, basicly Any Situation where I might have to accellerate away from fast !!

 

In these situations, I downshift, as I stated before, I want my POWER, ON TAP,

if I need it. I learned this on the FreeWays of Los Angeles, back in the 60's.

 

Be ready for anything!! Even the Cage driver that Tries to Run you into the Guard Rails !!! ( Yes, I have had that happen) I was rideing a Honda 450 !! I got away from the guy, but not by much. 35 HP, !! Never Again!!

 

Even when I ride that 2003 Springer my brother in law has down in LA, I get nervous about lack of Power. 60HP, Makes me nervous. I feel much better with a 95 HP engine!! And I feel a LOT better with a 175 HP Engine between my legs. !!! Try it!! you will like it .

[Marcy]

I have to look too.

[SilvrT]

Directly from the owner's manual... and why we ignore some things in an owner's manual...

"Apply front and/or rear brakes to slow the motorcycle." ?????

 

 

http://www.bergall.org/temp/venture/shifting.jpg

 

Note that they want you in 5th by the time you are at 31 mph when accelerating! And note the recommendations in "to decelerate #2"... one of the reasons you have to "temper" what the manual says with good ole common sense.

 

You'd be awefully busy at 12.5 mph on deceleration!!!

 

I've ALWAYS used the engine when decelerating, big bike, little bike, car or truck. On the bikes with HEAVY mechanical clutch linkage, it was a general rule to be in neutral at a stop in case the clutch cable broke. With the hydraulic clutch, I ALWAYS sit in first gear. You never know when the safest thing to do is grab some throttle, drop the clutch and get out of the way.

 

heh... the recommended shift point from 4th to 5th is 50 kilometers/hr .... ???? Do these people actually RIDE these bikes or what??? sheeeesh!

[cowpuc]

, that you have a lot of experience racing (I believe that's true) and it could very well be that there is something in the techniques that you would use that I would not be aware of, or know about, since I'm just a plain old everyday bike guy. I don't know! What I do know is that the technique I and evidently others use is logical, it's safe and it works. For the purpose intended, I will continue to use and recommend it to other riders, for the reasons I stated.

 

Autopilot,, I too have many years of bike racing under my belt and I can assure you that the technique you are describing is a very valuable tool for bike riding - and not just on a race course either!! I have won several 3 hour Harescrambles and even more Motocross events by being well versed in what you are describing..

Applying those same techniques got my daughter and I home from the west coast with NO clutch not long ago.. We were out of time and could not stop for repairs so I literally "felt" the gears for shifting both up and down for over 3000 miles!! It does help to understand what going on inside the tranny and too BUT having learned the skills you and I use a habit can come in real handy regardless of tranny knowledge..

Also, the idea of not downshifting until below 16 mph is crazy,, especially in traffic - I totally agree with everyone that being right on the power curve is where I want to be so I can pull the trigger and get out of the way instantly,, its more then riding here- its riding to stay alive!!!

Another quick thought, use your clutch the same way down as you would going up and you will be fine.. Just remember that the same damage will occur to your clutch plates if you slide your clutch alot going down as if you slip it alot going up.. Indeed you dont want to lock your rear tire up (and you wont if your not on loose ground - just like dumping your clutch while upshifting on gravel) which makes it even more important to downshift so you know what gear your tranny is in at all times WITHOUT looking down at your gear display (very dangerous in traffic) - with experience you will know what gear your going to just by the sound it makes when you downshift...

Thats my story an I'm stickin to it

'puc