Harley Davidson in trouble

[Bummer]

The auto manufacturers are asking for a loan, with interest, not a bail out. The bankers who caused this mess got the bailout, and they didn't even have to ask, or pay it back.

 

Are you all as mad at the fat cat bankers and the financial sharks who got a free ride as you are at the automakers who just want a loan?

 

Just wondering.

[Snarley Bill]

The auto manufacturers are asking for a loan, with interest, not a bail out. The bankers who caused this mess got the bailout, and they didn't even have to ask, or pay it back.

 

Are you all as mad at the fat cat bankers and the financial sharks who got a free ride as you are at the automakers who just want a loan?

 

Just wondering.

hey bummer, i'm with you buddy but i think we got a loser here. we are flat out numbered. no one cares about me. most folks want me to lose my retirement that i worked 30 years for, the worst part is i probably will. but i will never tell anyone and i will weather the storm on my own like i have all my life.i will give anyone anything i got if they need it, but i will never let anyone know when i am having hard times, and i sure won't ask anyone on here for help. just the way i was brought up. bill Edited November 23, 2008 by Snarley Bill

[Redneck]

I don't have a problem making a loan to the auto makers but like any other finance company I expect to see a workable business plan. The auto makers don't have a plan to become profitable they are loosing millions every day and they want us to give them billions more to keep loosing. I believe they will have to file chapter 11 and completely restructure the companys to be profitable. I don't want to see anyone loose their retirement all retirement plans should be paid out as they are earned to an account that the company has no access to or control over and that should be law. On the other hand its not my responsibility to give my retirement saving to someone else because they have lost theirs. I believe the auto workers have allowed their unions to help destroy these company's and not protect their retirement accounts. I also believe the management of these company's have made major mistakes that have put these companys in the situation they are in now. I also believe the worst thing that can happen to these companys is to have the federal government dictating how the companys are opperated. When the companys are restructured and have a profitable business plan they will not need a government hand out or loan because private investers will fund the companys. I can guarantee you one thing if the government loans them my money and they pay it back with interest I will not see one dime of that profit or even get my investment back. The government is not the answer it is the problem.

[Bummer]

I don't actually know anyone who's privy to the business plans of the Big Three. I'm not even aware of being able to access the business plan of the parts supplier that I work for. As a consequence I do not feel I can hold a rational opinion about the contents.

 

The union I'm in has given big concessions in each contract for the last fifteen or so years. Under the current contract new hires come in under $15 an hour. It takes ten years to max out at $18. Benefits have been greatly reduced as well. Medical is at 80% of what the company says they'll pay. There are two levels of copay. One for each incident, and one for the year. All persons in the treatment stream must be in the network or you pay that portion in full. For retirement it's 401(k) or nothing. Since that constitutes gambling on the stock market it pretty much represents handing your money to sharks. I personally expect no retirement at all and I've been there ten years. While the retirement funds should be separate, they are not fully funded or protected from raiding by the company. The most valuable benefit is layoff pay, most of which comes from State unemployment.

 

People have some amazing opinions about the situation of the unions. Not much of it seems to be based on the reality I'm living.

 

Every time my union gives back to the company they give a year's worth of that to the President of the company to reward him for squeezing us. He got a $2 million bonus for coming up with the company slogan: Bold. That's the stupidest %$@&*^$ slogan I've ever heard. Pretty bold thing to say, isn't it? Bet that's not what he had in mind. Average upper management pay in all fortune 500 companies is currently at around 800 times the top hourly employee's pay. Some are even higher. Every big business in the country has some basic conceptual problems revolving around greed. One need only look at AIG for an example.

 

Private investors carried these companies until the stock market crashed. Now nobody can get money. That's the whole point. The government, both Democrats and Republicans, broke the economy. That's why the auto makers are asking for the loans in the first place.

 

The argument that if the money is paid back the people won't see any benefit from it is a complaint against government, not the union or management. I don't disagree, mind you. I just see that as a fine reason to vote out every Democrat and Republican in office. My neighbor's dog could do a better job and he's been dead for a couple of years. Keep in mind that the Democrats created a loan guarantee system and the Republicans deregulated the system. Either could have been ok, together they represent a recipe for disaster. Both parties need to go.

 

I must admit I'm a bit confused by one point. The companies should file chapter 11, which puts them under court (government) control, yet government control is a bad thing. Seems to me a loan, with interest, forces the companies to get their acts together without placing the government in control.

[PBJ]

Thr problem Redneck is that you see this problem is from the point of view of a small business owner that pays his bills and doesn't borrow money hand over fist. The problem for mangement is that all these guys make millions and none of them feel thay have to sacrifice anything. Its been shown to us in labor over and over again. Right after we sign a contract giving back pay or benefite the company hands out bonus'.

 

Aftwer the depression there were no plans to help companies instead the governement created jobs and taxed the rich to pay for them. This was FDR's new deal the Conservatives have been working to dismantle it for years calling it Communisn, Socialism etc. Corporate leaders could have stopped it but didn't. By simply keeping a balance between labor and profits but the companies shipped more and more jobs over seas to increase profit while still losing market because foreign manufacturers in 3rd world nations aren't neccesarily cheaper when their quality is poor.

 

In the last 20 years there has been more and more deregulation and with it has come more corruption, businss failures( S&L scandal during the Reagan adminn.) and then Government bailing out the Companies while the workers in those companies still lose jobs.

 

We Americans flip out with fear when we think we might go Socialist or Communist. But two of the Richest economnies in the world are Socialist know what they are? England and Hungary. England we all know the pound is the strongest currency in Europe but Hungary is the quiet little Communst engie that could. After it revolted in 1956 all it asked of Russia was to develop its own kind of communism/socialism and it did. With out the Stalinist extremes that destroyed the Russian economy the Hungarians built a health economy that allows pivate business ownerhip along with govenrment programs. It also allows interaction with its economic neigbhors.

 

I don't want to see thing as they've been either but If the car companies don't reduce their Burden ( thats what management pay is refered to on the comopany books then the companies won't survive. As i said in another thread Burden is the problem not labor.