The Mighty GM

[PBJ]

Sorry not even close. Corporate likes throwing around numbers like that but only a few years ago it was $66 dollars and hour and i can tell you that many plants have taken serious cuts in pay and benefits so not even that $66 dollar number is realistic if people are going to pass around numbers as fact then get the facts right!

 

Sadly GM was the biggest kid on the block . If they had invested in good engineering and design they would still be on top. But they've spent more time in the last 20 yrs. chasing stock prices. Workers could see what was happening . They used to tell us "we need you to help us make a better product" but when we'd try to point out defects or problems they'd tell us we weren't engineer so what do we know. Or went schedules were tight just push the product through so mamnger could get their production bonus' or stock options. After awhile you just stop trying to make suggestions.

 

GM paid to send me to school and when I came back I was full of ideas and energy to help. They whated to know none of it. I wasn't alone. it was awful watching that happen. Plenty of workers want their company to succeed ,their products to be respected but we can only make what they give us to make.

 

$77/hr includes pensions, health care, and all the other benefits.

Edited November 13, 2008 by PB&J

[Snarley Bill]

was just sitting here thinking ,in my thirty years at ford averaging about 65 hr.s a week i probably made about $950,000 before taxes, thats figuring a little over $30,000 a year average . all the while contributing something worthwhile to society such as lots of motor vehicals, so people could get along in their everyday routine. now the st.louis rams have a quarter back that has a 65,000,000 dollar contract, and his greatest claim to fame in 4 years is he can throw a football, and not very well at that. i feel like me and all the auto workers got the royal shaft all these years at that rate. how can some one honestly blame me and all the other people who work hard for a living all their life for running the auto industry into bankruptcy. let me tell you a little about an assembly line. you have to have the forman get a relief man so you can go to the rest room. some times that takes a half hour or more. if you take off sick, you have to have a doctors slip before you come back to work. work started when the bell rang and you worked till the bell rang to quit. if you faltered or had a problem with a job. you went in the hole on your job and had to bust your butt sometimes for hours working your way out. no airconditioning ever. no heat clause. i worked the line when it was 110 degrees or more in the plant. all over time was mandatory when i worked there. worked many mandatory 84 hr weeks. displinary action was tough. if you looked the wrong way you went to the office and was docked for time off the job or sent home. if you worked your job a little ahead they time studied you and added work. the assembly line at an auto manufacturer is the most efficient type of production in the world next to robots, and i worked next to robots. i lived across the street from a guy who told me i was overpaid and the reason cars cost so much. he could'nt carry my boots to the crap house. he was a plumber and made about $10.00 more an hour than i did. if i did make $77.00 an hour is would'nt have been enough compared to some of the dead weights in higher up places that are way over paid. every one has benefits union or not one of my best freinds makes $450.000 a year plus company car, a big contract buy out if they want to get rid of him. and benefits that make mine look like nothing, and he ain't got enough common sense to come in out of the rain. i say more power to him cuz he is doing what he was hired to do and he does it well. why is it always the auto worker that gets the benefits throwed in their face. like everyone elses benefits are free to other companies. think about it. and figure what your benefits cost a year. thats my last 2 cents on this post. snarley bill

[ryder]

if they are given the bail out money and come next union contract will they go on strike for more money and job protection?

[az1103]

if they are given the bail out money and come next union contract will they go on strike for more money and job protection?

 

You got that right! The gimme wagon never stops!!!!

We need to let GM go into bankruptcy and shake the bloodsucking union yoke and let them come back with reasonable wages like Nisan and Toyota.

If we bail them out the future of the US auto industry is exactly like what happened in the UK.... When the unions got through with them...there wasn't any auto industry, it was sucked dry by union greed and disappeared!!

[PBJ]

Have you guys been reading any of this thread or are you just jumping in to spout off about why you think car prices are so high??!! Unions aren't perfect but believe me what the got workers was slim pickens compared to what corporate was scooping off the top. What amazes me is how many people are so quick to blame husbands and wives, fellow workers in this country from making $40 to 60 thousand dollars a year while some mangers, Board members and CEO were making 10-20 up to 100 times more and that is no exaggeration! Oh and by the way Nissan and Toyota Offer their people competitive wages Up to and including 20 to 25 dollars an hour. Why? Because they know if they didn't the unions would be there. Rightfully so. Not to sound alarmist but if all the unions were to go away tomorrow Corporations would start offering wages as low as the could get away with, and the economic machine would get even worst. Then who would be to blame? A well paid work force is a spending work force That is what the problem is with the economy right now and the minute the governement and corporate types realize that then and only then will the problem get better.

 

You got that right! The gimme wagon never stops!!!!

We need to let GM go into bankruptcy and shake the bloodsucking union yoke and let them come back with reasonable wages like Nisan and Toyota.

If we bail them out the future of the US auto industry is exactly like what happened in the UK.... When the unions got through with them...there wasn't any auto industry, it was sucked dry by union greed and disappeared!!

[FozzyUSN]

I don't think anyone is blaming the auto worker. I think (or at least I am) most are blaming the upper management. They make the rules and, when it suits them, break the rules for themselves and for the 'good ole boys' club.

Unless upper management changes it's style, which will never happen, the problem will continue until they go under. Unfortunately, it is the workers that are going to pay for managements mistakes, which seems to be the norm!

[az1103]

Have you guys been reading any of this thread or are you just jumping in to spout off about why you think car prices are so high??!!

 

 

Who said anything about high car prices????? I paid much more for my Lexuses and even my Mazda than I would have for any GM car!!!! Much more!!

But I got quality! Which is non-existent in US cars. And as far as the "working men and women" no one criticized them either!

The criticism was directed at unreasonable and never ending demands by greedy and corrupt blood-sucking unions!!!! Ours will not be the first country where they brought down a whole industry!!!!

[Guest Swifty]

greedy and corrupt blood-sucking unions!!!! Ours will not be the first country where they brought down a whole industry!!!!

Really? I sincerely didn't know that. Can anyone give me the names of a few countries and industies that this HAS happened to? I'd like to check it out.

[Snarley Bill]

Really? I sincerely didn't know that. Can anyone give me the names of a few countries and industies that this HAS happened to? I'd like to check it out.

thank you swifty, don't think you'll get an answer to that one. some people talk with a paper $$s. bill

[Celt]

[Bummer]

if they are given the bail out money and come next union contract will they go on strike for more money and job protection?

If you've actually read this thread you should know which company I work for, so I needn't go into that.

 

The Union I'm in has been giving back for twelve or fifteen years. Last year at this time we were on strike to try and reduce the amount we had to give back. We lost. When it was over they gave the top couple of management guys a years worth of our give-back as bonuses for reducing work force compensation. It's happened every time.

 

Currently new hires come in at $15 and change. It takes ten years to get to what they used to hire in at before the give-backs started. Benefits have been cut heavily. The price of engines has only gone up. Upper management pay has only gone up.

 

While a Union is only as good as it's local leadership, which can be pretty bad, they are not the problem. They're just an easy target.

[Snarley Bill]

ya know, i was just wondering how people on this site that i would stand behind anyday of the week can belittle some one whether union or non union that works hard to eke out a living for theirself and there family. i am by no means poor but i don't think i am better and deserve more than anyone else that does an honest days work for an honest days pay. i don't support derelects that use the system but i do support anyone who works hard , be it rich or poor, educated or not so educated. unions started back when henry ford sent his goons out to beat up workers that protested very poor working conditions. there was a time when the assembly line would break down and you had to sit with no pay untill they got it running again to finish your 8 hrs. and you could'nt go home until you worked your 8 hrs. financially i'm in pretty good shape. but ya know when the trashman comes by to pick up my trash i always wave at him and say hi. cuz i just don't think i'm any better than he is. he works his butt off and probably does'nt get much in the way of thanks. but he deserves as much respect as anyone else that works hard, be it a doctor, lawyer or department head, cuz he in my opinion is just as good as they are. what i guess i'm trying to say is, think twice before you tear into good people that are just trying to make there way in life. they have just as much right to make a decent living as anyone else.

[Guest ezornes]

I do not understand the gov bailing out any company? i have tried to get a GM

job several times over a 30 year period to no avail. so I just tried harder to make it on

my own , I never had the luxury of any benefits etc... insurance, lawyers, large hourly salaries, all kinds of perks etc that these big 3 give everyone, so i its no wonder they are in this kind of shape, also the big execs getting those salaries is a sin also.

I think Harley Davidson will take the biggest hit on sales if the big 3 do badly, I have been joked about for years for riding rice burners etc.. But at least I dont have a 4-5 hundred dollar monthly payment for it either. Things have just gotten out of hand with the costs of a HD . I expect because they want the same things that the big 3 want,

I try to purchase products from corporations that compensate employees with a fair wage and not all the bells and whistles, I am tired of underwriting someone else's retirement program.

[PBJ]

Bummer amd Snarley Bill hit the nail on the head and thats the last i have to say on this thread!

[Mariner Fan]

I can't comment on GM's woes. Seems they have always been very "top heavy". Lots of finger pointing going on about Unions and such. It's probably a combination of many factors that put them in this situation.

 

One of the things that a lot of folks don't think about is all the companies that supply the auto industry. The cascade effect of GM's demise will cause these companies to go down as well.

 

I know, because I work for one of them. We aren't big, and our costs are low. If they don't build cars here then the pain will be felt by a huge amount of the "little guys".

[Jerry W]

We can blame unions, management etc., fact is probably both did all they could to get higher wages and better benefits. That being said I have determined that the entire financial downturn is Bill's fault. So now I guess I have to put on my big boy panties and deal with it then I can get back to motorcycles.

[Sailor]

What realy annoys me is that one financial report states that the management at GM gets more in pay, bonuses, pensions and benefits than all the workers combined. Can't blame the union for that. The company I used to work for had 350 managers to run 35 ships and 4500 employees. They now have 700 managers for the same number of ships and employees. The employees have been held to near zero increases in pay for 12 years while the managers give themselves huge pay raises. Need I say it is going broke and will probably get a government bailout.

[greg_in_london]

The employees have been held to near zero increases in pay for 12 years while the managers give themselves huge pay raises.

 

Ain't it the same all over.

 

The general view over here is that the British bike industry went down beause they got omplacent being the biggest players around and didn't reinvest in new tooling or designs. Yes the unions were blamed, but I understand that the amount of time lost due to stress and accidents (now people are less protected) is more than time lost due to strikes in the 1970s.

 

The gap between the well paid and the not so well paid has been growing here for years, yet the media continue to target the lowest paid and blame costs on them. Perversely, when Tony Blair was commenting on pay rises (below real inflation) for local authority staff he wanted to include state benefits as part of the discussion ! (Translation - full time staff working for the state don't earn enough to live and need top-up benefits).

 

I was a union negotiating officer for years in a previous job and was victimised as a result. I represented many people - mainly staff whose faces didn't fit with managers. Some were better than others, but no-one was a skiver. Mainly we tried to reach a mutually convenient accommodation, but most problems really came down to pretty useless management who couldn't deal with a situation - or actually WERE the problem themselves. Oops - danger of ranting.

 

I'm glad that I'm in a pretty safe job now - only several months ago I was in agency work - a few more months and ith belt-tightening I might not have got a permanent contract.

[ibents]

Sorry to bring this up again, but take a look at the video and see what could happen.

What do you think?

Ian

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rfM4n1gdjM]YouTube - The Ripple Effect of the US Auto Industry by GM[/ame]

[Snarley Bill]

Sorry to bring this up again, but take a look at the video and see what could happen.

What do you think?

Ian

 

YouTube - The Ripple Effect of the US Auto Industry by GM

did'nt watch the video, but thought i would inject a little common sense wisdom in here. pointing fingers is'nt going to get out of this mess. if the auto industry goes down this country is finished. this is not, just my speculation but a fact. there are millions of jobs that depend on the auto industry. just to name a few. tire manufacturers, electronic manufacturers, venders that make seats, door panels, carpeting, paint, computors, robots, utilities,lubricants, steelworkers, vinyl, glass, all the dealers that provide millions of jobs. i could go on and on. the auto makers only have engine plants casting plants, and assembly plants. most all the other assembly parts are made by outside vendors. when you get all these rebates and giveaway prices on new cars thats just what they are. they are paying you to buy a vehicle at their loss. i know we have a bunch of financial wizards on here that will say let them go broke it's their fault, and that may be right. but we are all going to go down with them, and thats the real fact. think about it, it don't take a brain surgeon to figure this out. this ain't no game this is the beginning of the dimise of the country that i love. snarley bill

[ibents]

did'nt watch the video, but thought i would inject a little common sense wisdom in here. pointing fingers is'nt going to get out of this mess. if the auto industry goes down this country is finished. this is not, just my speculation but a fact. there are millions of jobs that depend on the auto industry. just to name a few. tire manufacturers, electronic manufacturers, venders that make seats, door panels, carpeting, paint, computors, robots, utilities,lubricants, steelworkers, vinyl, glass, all the dealers that provide millions of jobs. i could go on and on. the auto makers only have engine plants casting plants, and assembly plants. most all the other assembly parts are made by outside vendors. when you get all these rebates and giveaway prices on new cars thats just what they are. they are paying you to buy a vehicle at their loss. i know we have a bunch of financial wizards on here that will say let them go broke it's their fault, and that may be right. but we are all going to go down with them, and thats the real fact. think about it, it don't take a brain surgeon to figure this out. this ain't no game this is the beginning of the dimise of the country that i love. snarley bill

Couldn't agree more.

 

Ian

[flb_78]

So how much money do we throw at them while they continue to sink? Should management still get multimillion dollar bonuses while feeding out of the taxpayer's trough?

 

Let em sink, they'll be bought up and the companies reshaped into being profitable again.

 

It'll be rough for a little bit, but it's going to happen sooner or later and the sooner it is, the easier it will be.

[Mariner Fan]

We are already feeling the effects. Just had to lay off most of our production work force. Now we are on a skeleton crew with Supervisors and Managers producing only 3 days a week.

 

We hope to hang on until things get better but it doesn't look good.

 

We sell magnesium to the automotive die casters.

[PBJ]

So how much money do we throw at them while they continue to sink? Should management still get multimillion dollar bonuses while feeding out of the taxpayer's trough?

 

Let em sink, they'll be bought up and the companies reshaped into being profitable again.

 

It'll be rough for a little bit, but it's going to happen sooner or later and the sooner it is, the easier it will be.

 

No the whole point is to force the companies in INVEST money and keep it out of managements pockets. Any money given to the companies should be on condition that bonuses are frozen, Upper management pay is cut to world standards and the European and japanese models be implemented . This is what Triumph did and look how that company has come back?

[Redneck]

All this doom and gloom the auto industry isn't going to go away. All the so called experts said the same thing about the airline industry it didn't happen some filed bankruptcy cut out the fat and came back making a profit. Think about this people if the auto industry gets this bail out the government has them by the balls. All this talk about the government should require them to do this and that thats socialism people and that is the end of america as we know it. Anyone who is willing to give up their freedom and liberty for the allusion of security deserves neither freedom or liberty.

When was the last time any of you saw the government run anything anywhere besides into the ground? If you pour money into a bottomless pit it will never fill up you must first have a bottom. keep in mind I am just a dumb redneck and I don't know squat. But I do own multiple business's that I have built from the ground up and they all make a profit which the government promptly takes half of. Give me liberty or give me death. and to hell with the auto industry.