The Mighty GM

[Marcarl]

Seen a news item on CTV the other night about a bailout, one of the financial companies. They got their money and immediately had a retreat to celebrate, looked rather lavish to me, and it didn't seem they learned any lessons real quick like.

My opinion: when the course has run for what ever you are doing, the fun is over, then it's time to do something else. Ask a farmer how this works, they go through it every year.

Times ahead will not be easy for anyone of us. We will continue to live and exists, how be it, not as we have in the past. None of us will be left unaffected. The poor will find it hard to find food and shelter and will suffer physically, the rich will loose millions and suffer great pains mentally. I'm not sure which is worse, but I'm glad I'm not rich.

Times like these have been prophesied in the Bible, could it be that the world is coming to a close? It'll be interesting to watch. So far we have seen many things that were foretold come to fruition. Nice to know that there is Someone who knew that was to be and has control.

[shooter3001]

darn i never figured i made that much as an auto worker. i worked my ass off as an auto worker for thirty years, can't hardly walk, backs shot, worked 12 hrs a day 7 days a week out side , no weather clause most of the years i was there. the rest of the time i was layed off due to recessions, ain't much left of this old fart physically, i hurt from head to foot 24 ,seven. i earned my money and i earned this great retirement. no one ever gave me nothin and i never asked for nothin. i worked alot harder than fat butt ted kennedy ever did in his life and most of the people like him. i deserved what i earned.and i don't owe no one any apologies for what i got. i ain't lazy and i will take on any task. sorry i just had to air that out. get tired of people telling me it's my fault the economies screwed up. snarley bill[/quo

 

Couldn't have said it better myself. I'm a GM retiree also. Yes GM and the Union provided me with a pretty good living, but to get it, I had to "suit up and show up" everyday. Not everyone can do the same thing everyday, 100 times an hour, 8 to 12 hours a day. I ended up leaving after 33 yrs. with a limp from a crushed foot and ankle, and carpul tunnel.

Most that haven't worked in the factories want to blame the unions, but it just wasn't the unions. And also what some don't understand, is that if it wasn't for the unions getting us our wages and benifits the rest of the non-union workers around the country wouldn't have gotten wage increases and benifits. Do you really think that companys just give that because they like to?

Ok, I'll get down off my soap box now.

Edited November 12, 2008 by shooter3001
mis-spelled word

[Redneck]

I did not mean to imply that union members are not honest hard working people. I will bet anybody who has worked in an auto factory could write a book about the waste they have seen and know of many people who should have been fired but could not be fired. Those things have been a contributing factor in the inability of the american auto industry to compete. Its not my responsibility to bail them out and I believe if they can't make money they should fail.

[Skid]

How long is it going to be before the small business is wanting a bailout.

When does it stop?

 

I feel for anyone losing their jobs, but these big business bailouts can't take everyone down with it......

 

Lets see: I'm going to start a small business. I'll can be the CEO with a pay check of $2 million a year. I'll even put my wife in as vice with $1 mil a year, and I'll have to have a couple employees to do te work. Maybe I'll pay them $100K a year. How much profit will I need each year? Do you think it will survive? Can I get the government to bail me out? Its a no-fail situation!

Edited November 12, 2008 by Skid

[shooter3001]

I did not mean to imply that union members are not honest hard working people. I will bet anybody who has worked in an auto factory could write a book about the waste they have seen and know of many people who should have been fired but could not be fired. Those things have been a contributing factor in the inability of the american auto industry to compete. Its not my responsibility to bail them out and I believe if they can't make money they should fail.

 

So do you think we should bail out the banking industry? It seems to me that thier CEOs wasted tons of money. But that's different, right?

[PBJ]

To hear you guys repeating the myths and lies GM and other manufacturers have been making about Labor to get the ignorant on their side. Labor coss on American automoblies has risen only 3% in thirty years ( from 7% to 10% of every dollar) Where as scrap costs in the auto industry used to be 25% of every dollar and still hovers close to 15% .

 

Its a well known secret that American industry spends more of its profits on management pay than it does on design and engineering like they do in Europe and Japan. In fact the ratio's are almost exactly opposite to other manufacturers. Gm spun off it's parts divisions 10 years ago then gouged out the guts of those divisions by asking back for all the over pricing they had been putting on those parts for years. But prices didn't go down!

 

Delphi the spun off company spent its first 5 years buying up foreign companies all over the world using America profit money . Then 3 years ago when the company CFO got caught trying to jack up the falling stock price with a $20 million dollar "loan" from EDS which he gave back right after the quarterly profit declaration. The Feds actually caught that one. Cfo gets Fired Ceo takes an early retirement with a golden parachute . And the new Ceo ,Steve Miller ,the guy who gutted Bethlehem steel sent the company into Bannkruptcy.

 

He started but spreading the lie about how GM and Delphi were paying Laborers $66.00 an hour to cut the grass. It was always labors fault, then he wanted to turn around and give bonus' to all those upper management guys , that he need to run the company to stay on. These were the same guys that ran the company into Bankruptcy but he thinks they deserve a bonus for the great job they were doing.

 

Interestingly The division that was making the profit that allowed them to buy those other companies. (The U.S. Division)was the only one going into bankruptcy. The Uaw along with the Steel workers and 4 other Unions fought Delphi aand GM in the courts. Some of us got early retirement buy outs everyone else took major cuts in pay from $24 dollars down to $12 and $15 for many employees. And for many there are no longer pensions offered. That means that for many who wrere squeeking out a one family income that was over! But did car prices go down NO!

 

Now management wants a bail out and I'll garauntee the lions share of that money won't go to research or product development or retooling. Management has to get their share first and always. The shame of it is that many retired white collar workers ( secertaries, accountants, engineers) are getting screwed now because they had no contracts to their benefits. Earlier this year they lost their medical benefit in exchange for a $200 a month raise in their pension. So $200 from $600 premium cost means these people on a fixed income now have to dish out another $400 from their pocket. I will promise you that some upper management guy got a big Bonus for that idea! So please , please if you don't know the facts about whats going on in the Auto industry stop buying into the Coropate BS about labor cost. 10 cents on the dollar isn't bringing GM or Ford to its knees. Look elsewhere!!!

Edited November 12, 2008 by PB&J

[Snarley Bill]

I did not mean to imply that union members are not honest hard working people. I will bet anybody who has worked in an auto factory could write a book about the waste they have seen and know of many people who should have been fired but could not be fired. Those things have been a contributing factor in the inability of the american auto industry to compete. Its not my responsibility to bail them out and I believe if they can't make money they should fail.

mike, in the auto industry you can get fired very easily. you have to go through a few stages of disiplinary action but ultmately you get fired. seen lots of folks get fired. they usually weed out the bad ones before they get their 90 days in. the only problem i had with the union was they traded grievances to get people back that were fired. like any type of work there are always going to be derelects that figure out how to cheat the system. thats just human nature. i still say it's the american people as a whole that have gotten us into this mess including me. i have learned to take responsibility for my own actions where as most people haven't and want to blame someone else. not trying to be pesimistic. but i have been around long enough and am smart enough to see there's no fix for this mess cuz the rest of the world owns us. the more money we borrow the bigger chunk the chinese and other countries take out of this country. i would call it the real cold war, and the sneaky $$$tards are taking us down while we're sleeping. bill

[PBJ]

mike, in the auto industry you can get fired very easily. you have to go through a few stages of disiplinary action but ultmately you get fired. seen lots of folks get fired. they usually weed out the bad ones before they get their 90 days in. the only problem i had with the union was they traded grievances to get people back that were fired. like any type of work there are always going to be derelects that figure out how to cheat the system. thats just human nature. i still say it's the american people as a whole that have gotten us into this mess including me. i have learned to take responsibility for my own actions where as most people haven't and want to blame someone else. not trying to be pesimistic. but i have been around long enough and am smart enough to see there's no fix for this mess cuz the rest of the world owns us. the more money we borrow the bigger chunk the chinese and other countries take out of this country. i would call it the real cold war, and the sneaky $$$tards are taking us down while we're sleeping. bill

Unions aren't perfect I had my share of troubles with them but those were local gripes with casper Milktoast that thought they were Big Sh*t cause they were in the union. On the national level they really tried to give the body of the union fair deals. They were called communists , socialist, terrorists, But they pay they got into workers hands created one of the strongest middle classes in the world. For almost twenty years they've been wittling away at that middle class and this economic collapse is a direct result. people with out good paying jobs buy less and the machinery of captialism grinds to a halt everywhere else. The rich can not and do not spenfd at the higher opercentage rate that the middle class do of they annual income. Want to fix that then pass a law that the rich have to spend at the same percentage as we do or pay a penalty mthen you'd never have to raise another tax. I promise you that!

[BEER30]

At the age of 7 , I spent summer vacation with my Grandpa . I hadn't seen my Grandpa since I was an infant , so saying I hardly knew him at the time . My dad took me out to his workplace , he owned his own concrete construction company . Grandpa asked me if me if I wanted to work for him during the summer vacation , I said ,"Sure do ". Well the job of the day was pouring and finishing concrete . I was told to get a set of knee boards and a set of trowels . I was placed on the wet soupie concrete , being as young as I was that anything I may be doing wrong , there was ample time to fix .

Later that day while cleaning up the tools , I noticed my Grandpa chewing out one of his top cement finishers . As nosy as a kid will be , I pondered over to listen in . Grandpa was telling his employee , "Anytime a 7 year old that can out-finished one of his top cement finishers , he didn't need them ". Then he turns to me and says , "If you are digging a ditch and break the shovel handle , I'll pay to get you another shovel . If you break that shovel handle leaning on it , I'll beat you silly with it and make you pay for that handle out of what pay check you do get !"

What happened to hard working honest people these days ?

 

BEER30

[Ga Dawg]

My fleet of trucks in my company is all GM's. I love 'em, I got to have 'em, and feel good when I buy American. I need the big Dura Max diesels to haul the loads around the farm and to get on the road with but I would be lost if I had to go get a cab over or some other foreign truck in the future. What a waist.

[Snarley Bill]

i don't agree with any of the bailouts. we are just buying a little time and digging a gargantuan hole to fall into. they had to be, just to buy a little time, and that is all they will provide, a little more time. the crooks will still be crooked, islam is still out to take us out, inflation will go on. and the usa will have to keep borrowing money form the chinese, japanese, and the arabs for more bailouts. nothings sacred anymore we have foreigners buying up our race horses, beating us at the indy 500, and nascar. they are buying our companies. the chinese tried to buy our oil companies and believe me they will pay the right people off eventually and succeed. the bailout is way to little and to stupid a move to late, and it is going to cost us all big time in the not to far future.

[FozzyUSN]

Just my . I normally don't agree with (sorry) Dr. Phil, but on this issue I have to. You don't throw money at a money problem, you fix the problem that created the money problem in the first place. I didn't agree with the bailout because if you or I were to go belly up, who is going to bail us out? No one! If these companies cannot figure out their problems and fix them themselves, why should they stay in business?

I guess what I'm saying is, if they fall, let them fall and then figure out how to stand back up. Otherwise, the next time it happens, good ole Uncle Sam will be EXPECTED to help them out again and again and . . . They no longer have any risk.

Maybe management should look at taking a paycut. If they don't, they will not have any pay at all.

Again, just my .

[spingley]

The main reason the big 3 are in serious trouble is not because of the unions, it is because their sales are very low, and have been for quite some time. If their sales were hot then they would be so busy building cars that the ineffeciencies of the older union laborers would be masked by the huge profits they would be making. The truth is that for the most part people do not feel like they would be buying a quality vehicle from the big 3, my opinion is that except for their trucks, they are crapmobiles. I work for Subaru and I can tell you that they are quality fanatics around here. The reason we build such quality vehicles here is because management plans it, insists it is designed that way, has put numerous checks in place all along the production process, and demands it. They have banners all over the place, weekly talks, and constant looking over the shoulder for QUALITY, and ZERO DEFECTS, I think you get the picture. We build Camry's for Toyota and it is the exact same way with them, this is how the big 3 should have been. I have nothing but respect for the Japanese, they work incredible hours, are always friendly and never complain. We have a lot to learn from them.

[Redneck]

So do you think we should bail out the banking industry? It seems to me that thier CEOs wasted tons of money. But that's different, right?

Absolutely not no private business should be bailed out by the government. If they can't make a profit they should fail in every case including my business.

[Older...]

Absolutely not no private business should be bailed out by the government. If they can't make a profit they should fail in every case including my business.

I agree 100%.

 

Now for a soultion to our domestic $$$ problems; which country or government sets the best example for the USA to follow and pull us out of this mess?

Part two: can we or will we follow that example; and eventually prosper again as a nation?

[Eck]

and here I deleated my post of getting laid off........

Edited November 13, 2008 by Eck

[ibents]

I listened to some of the congressional or senate hearing's ...not sure which one it was....about the colapse of Morgan / Stanley which started all this mess and found it incredible that the CEO's pay including stock options and bonuses came to $489 million and he was quite nonchalont about it, saying in good times he earned it.

 

I can't think of anyone that is worth that kind of money, its that kind of ...I would call it arrogance... that many CEO's believe that they deserve that kind of renumeration, yet they want everyone else to take pay cuts to "help them" become more competative.

 

Just a footnote: In the news it said, If the auto industry goes down there will be an instant 2,000,000 + jobs lost.

 

Ian

[Cinderella]

I am not even going to get involved in this one..........but being the wife of an auto worker......I want to know where the $77 an hour is????????

 

Ford was offering buy outs yet again last month....in fact they were even calling us on the phone reminding us of the cutoff date...never saw them do this before...

 

plain and simple not being close enough to retiring there is no way we could take one.....so here we are holding our breathe once again riding it out......we already transfered once thinking the plant here was safe....but im not sure anymore.

 

a lot of waste going on in there? you bet.....its unreal.......but some work for their money and bust their butts and pay the price health wise and no time with their familys so they can survive.......ask me , I know !

[flb_78]

$77/hr includes pensions, health care, and all the other benefits.

[BEER30]

and here I deleated my post of getting laid of........

 

Eck , Please keep this PG !

 

BEER30

[MiCarl]

I want to know where the $77 an hour is????????

 

That is the cost of labor/hour building vehicles. A sizable chunk of that $77 is payments to the hundreds of thousands of retirees, it's included in the labor cost.

 

I used to be a contractor to Ford product development. There was a lot of prototype work and the building was full of skilled trades. Anytime we wanted a job done we needed to get OT authorized because they never had time to do it during regular hours. They did seem to have lots of time for reading the paper, playing cards and running their side businesses during regular hours.

 

The salary people weren't much better.

[Cinderella]

Absolutely right!!! On the news the other day they said that auto workers were drawing $77.00 an hour when you count both wages and benefits. .

 

this is what i was refering to.......there is no $77 an hr being paid to the average worker between his wages and benefits. thats why i asked where is the $77 an hr? I'd like him to be making that much!

 

I can understand the the cost of labor being that high per hr..but the average auto worker is not making that much per hr.

 

but man the games they play there..and if you know how to play....well.........

[Cinderella]

here is a clear cut explanation of it

 

 

$70-$75 an hour is pretty good pay, but it is also not really what UAW members earn. The base pay for these workers is around $25 an hour. To get to $75 an hour, you would have to believe that autoworkers get $100,000 a year in benefits.

 

Assume that they get $15k for their pension and $25k for their health insurance, that gets you to $40k. Where is the rest of the $100k? Well, what the auto industry does to get this figure is they average in their health care and pension costs for their retirees. These are real expenses for the industry, but they have nothing to do with the compensation received by current workers.

[mraf]

I agree 100%.

 

Now for a soultion to our domestic $$$ problems; which country or government sets the best example for the USA to follow and pull us out of this mess?

Part two: can we or will we follow that example; and eventually prosper again as a nation?

 

Huuummm, best example I would say Brazil, Foreign oil independent, not bridled up with a million bureaucratic laws, progressive.

Can we follow, doubt it, damage already done, never seen many laws repealed, we seem to be more of a reactive country than one that sets the pace.

Things are smelling a whole lot more socialist lately with all this talk of bailouts. Didn't the country bailout Chrysler years ago. Does anyone know if that was ever paid back?

[az1103]

Absolutely right!!! On the news the other day they said that auto workers were drawing $77.00 an hour when you count both wages and benefits. One thing that I hear lately is "They're too big to let fail". Why? If they go belly up, how is that any different that Studebaker, Nash, Hudson, Packard, or any of a number of others? Isn't that the way capitalism works? You're either able to compete or not. I hate to see people lose their jobs, but usually after the dust settles, the market is better for it. Makes the ones that are left become more competitive.

 

I am in 100% agreement! The last good Cadillac I purchased was in 77, in 81 my new Eldorado turned out to be a heap! I moved away from GM for many years, finally in 94 I purchased a Suburban. After the first rain I discovered that someone at the assembly plant failed to seal the "barn doors" and the whole inside was flooded. They fixed that somewhat shabbily because the factory replacement carpet didn't really fit! Within a few months we discovered that due to poor machining of the valve guides, 2 cylinders bit the dust. I had to threaten lawsuit to get a new car. Unfortunately by that time I was into two GM vehicles, a 96 Suburban and a 98 Tahoe. Both of these were in and out of the shop incessantly! In 01 I replaced both of them with Lexuses, my problems stopped instantly!!! I have had 0, zilch, nada, happen with either car in 7 years!

I say, let them reap the fruits of their labor....Let them fail! I don't want my tax dollars saving that kind of company!