Weak front brakes

[algie1100]

My new to me 90 Venture seems to have fairly weak front brakes. The rear aren’t to bad but the front could really use some help. In reading some old posts it looks like the fix is to replace the front with calipers from a R1 or R6 and/or upgrade to stainless brake lines. And de-linking the brakes.

For a novice like me, swapping the calipers looks like it would be a straight forward task. Replacing the brake lines would be a bigger job and de-linking the brakes bigger still.

 

So my question, would just replacing the calipers make much of a difference? Will any year R1 or R6 calipers work? Do the rotors need to be replaced along with the calipers? Do the brakes need to be de-linked when upgrading? I’m thinking of upgrading in stages and seeing what helps.

 

Thanks,

Al

[pegscraper]

I don't know whether the R1 calipers will fit a 1st gen or not. Someone else will have to say. Then you really need a 14mm master cylinder to work with them the best. I don't know what's available for 1st gens in this regard. Using just the calipers without the correct M/C will be functional but not that impressive. But both together are incredible. The mechanical advantage ratio between the M/C and calipers is much better than the stock brakes.

 

Braided lines will help a lot also, because they transfer more of the M/C movement to the calipers instead of absorbing it, like the old lines will do when they swell up.

[Thom]

i have changed the front calibers to r6 2002 they are off a fjr 1300 and they work great , it is a easy swap , i have not delinked because i like the linked set up but i very rarely use my pedal now and i have not installed the ss brake lines because i am lazy , i have them but just to lazy to put them on , you don't need to change the rotors .

Thom

[5bikes]

Bleed the 2 systems, check for sticking pistons, do the rotors need resurfacing, are the pads worn or oil soaked, are any hoses leaking or soft? My friends 88's are very good.

[bobcat]

 

So my question, would just replacing the calipers make much of a difference? Will any year R1 or R6 calipers work? Do the rotors need to be replaced along with the calipers? Do the brakes need to be de-linked when upgrading? I’m thinking of upgrading in stages and seeing what helps.

 

Thanks,

Al

 

I'd take it one step at a time...Bleed the front brakes then check the pads and rotors for oil or brake fluid..(Pads might not be getting a good bite)..If they're OK then I'd rebuild the calipers..If that doesn't give you the results you want then consider your other options...

I might add that the stock brakes work well...IMHO

[algie1100]

I should have mentioned in my first post that the pads have been replaced, the fluid replaced and all brake lines have been bled.

To check for sticking calipers what would I look for?

 

Al

[Squeeze]

I'd take it one step at a time...Bleed the front brakes then check the pads and rotors for oil or brake fluid..(Pads might not be getting a good bite)..If they're OK then I'd rebuild the calipers..If that doesn't give you the results you want then consider your other options...

 

I might add that the stock brakes work well...IMHO

 

 

I beg to differ. Check the existing System for Flaws is a good Idea. Minor Investments in the existing System may be ok. But when it's Time to rebuilt the old Calipers, i never do that. It's faster, easier and cheaper to replace them with the newer R1/R6/FJR Calipers.

 

The R1 Calipers will work with the existing linked Lines but you won't get the best out of them.

 

 

If the old ones are sticking, change them to R1

 

If you want more braking power, change them and delink the Brakes for the best Outcome. The front M/C is fine feeding both front R1 Calipers.

 

SS Lines are a must imho, the old Lines are just expanding and aren't able to transfer the full hydraulic Force to the Pistons.

 

The R1 Calipers will fit the MKII Bikes without any Issue, bolt on.

[CrazyHorse]

I beg to differ. Check the existing System for Flaws is a good Idea. Minor Investments in the existing System may be ok. But when it's Time to rebuilt the old Calipers, i never do that. It's faster, easier and cheaper to replace them with the newer R1/R6/FJR Calipers.

 

The R1 Calipers will work with the existing linked Lines but you won't get the best out of them.

 

 

If the old ones are sticking, change them to R1

 

If you want more braking power, change them and delink the Brakes for the best Outcome. The front M/C is fine feeding both front R1 Calipers.

 

SS Lines are a must imho, the old Lines are just expanding and aren't able to transfer the full hydraulic Force to the Pistons.

 

The R1 Calipers will fit the MKII Bikes without any Issue, bolt on.

 

I totally agree with Squeeze 1st Gen brakes are lacking compared to other bikes pretty small front disks,linked set up etc. I have delinked and switched to R1/R6 calipers, HH level brake pads, SS lines, a GSXR600/750 master front cylinder, removed the rear proportining valve and still think the brakes are lacking compared to other bikes, but they are better then stock. 1st Gen brakes in general

[CrazyHorse]

My new to me 90 Venture seems to have fairly weak front brakes. The rear aren’t to bad but the front could really use some help. In reading some old posts it looks like the fix is to replace the front with calipers from a R1 or R6 and/or upgrade to stainless brake lines. And de-linking the brakes.

For a novice like me, swapping the calipers looks like it would be a straight forward task. Replacing the brake lines would be a bigger job and de-linking the brakes bigger still.

 

So my question, would just replacing the calipers make much of a difference? Will any year R1 or R6 calipers work? Do the rotors need to be replaced along with the calipers? Do the brakes need to be de-linked when upgrading? I’m thinking of upgrading in stages and seeing what helps.

 

Thanks,

Al

 

None of this is hard to do calipers are easy, if you decide to delink you might as well put SS lines on at the same time because you will need different length lines,a t-fitting or double banjo bolt (I used a double banjo but I would go with a t-fitting), The right fairing will have to come off if I remember right to get to the metering valve for removal (cant remember) and right side plastic.

[Condor]

Squeeze sent this info to me on the R1/R6 caliper years that will work.

R1.....'99-'03

R6.....'97-'01

Also when looking at calipers on Ebay the blue dots are steel, and the gold dots are aluminum.

Hope it helps. I really helped me.

[lonestarmedic]

I de-linked my brakes about a month ago. I used R6 calipers on the front. They have a steel piston. The R1 has an aluminum piston. I changed the upper line, removed the proportioner and added a V-Max front tee and lines without removing the fairing at all. The only bugger is the factory plastic block holding the lines on the fork. It has 2 phillips screws holding it. The only way to access is a phillips bit in a 1/4" drive ratchet. They are tight!!! I am installing an R1 caliper on the rear. I don't like the rear brake. It is well bled, just doesn"t have a lot of grab. I suspect glazed pads etc. contribute. I am using S/S lines and fittings from Goodridge. My final step will be to install S/S caliper lines when I rebuild the front forks. My anti-dive is not working well. The solenoids are functional, but I don't have lock-up. I need to see the condition of the seal washers.

 

Opinions so far :

1. I like the control of the de-linked brakes

2. The fronts are fantasic. Stop power is maybe triple now.

3. Rear is substandard. As it is a good original caliper, I suspect the system design.

4. Bleeding is a simple task now.

5. This swap is well within the grasp of the average owner who has bled brakes before.

6. Upgrade to S/S lines is a good add. MkII lines are old and squishy.

7. Very cost effective upgrade.

8. Watch the front on gravel!! and grabbing a handful at full lock. (I owe $5.00)

9. Rear brake no longer causes front skid on gravel or sand.

 

Costs:

3 calipers from E-bay @ $60.00

V-Max lines and tee @ $19.00

2 new S/S lines @ $80.00 (for the pair)

Pile of copper washers @ $10.00

Quart of DOT4 @ $0.5.50

 

Future: 2 front S/S lines @ $80.00 (for the pair)

 

Now, you can get a great set of S/S lines to fit the stock system from Buckeye Performance. I believe they will add a lot to the system. Many on the site have used them and reported a firmer brake. It makes sense. Rubber is deteriorating the minute it leaves the mold. Just a fact of chemistry. So, the newest MkII is a 1993. That makes original lines a minimum of 16 years old (mfg. dates give or take). Mine are almost 23 years old!!

 

When I finish the rear caliper I will be able to give a clearer report. My brakes were in great shape when I started. All fluid was clean, pads good (maybe glazed) and no air or leaks. I did some butt-o-meter stopping tests befor I started the project. I won't know completely until I iron out the anti-dive. Right now even with progressive springs I can hit the fronts in a parking lot hard enough to bottom the forks unless I have about 8-9lbs. of air in the front. At greater speeds it just dives and stops-NOW! Hope this helps a bit.

 

JB

[lonestarmedic]

I just rode a Victory Vision on Saturday. It also has linked brakes. When the rear is applied, at a certain pressure point, the fronts start to get applied. It is a proportioning deal. When the fronts are applied, they operate the front only. I think they did a great job. On light applications in parking lots, rear only. On a curve to scrub a bit of speed, almost all rear. Hit heavier at a stop, great link feel. Both fronts get pressure. Grab all 3 calipers and hold on!! It sure could use anti-dive. I think Mochalady bruised her nose on my helmet! Compared to the 1st Gen link system, it is fantastic. You can lock the rear brake running solo if you try. However, it is extremely well controlled. This Jetsonmobile may look different, but under the tupperware is some fantastic engineering. Just needs a V-4 with fuel injection. Maybe a Vision-Max. Are you listening Yamaha?

 

JB

[Gearhead]

Al, one thing I haven't seen addressed here is your terminology. You said,

My new to me 90 Venture seems to have fairly weak front brakes. The rear aren’t to bad...

 

Maybe you know this already, but remember that when you pull the hand lever you only get one front caliper, or HALF the front brakes. The linked system gives you the other front caliper and the rear together when you push the foot brake. If you're used to riding bikes with normal brakes, you're accustomed to getting all the front brake power with the lever. So you need to compare apples to apples.

 

To each his own, of course, but IMHO the factory brakes work very well once you're used to them. I've had to release brake pressure due to squealing tires in emergency stops, so I know they give me all the braking I have traction for.

 

I was used to using mostly front brake as my Virago has dual front discs with only a drum in the rear. So on the Venture I had to retrain myself to use the pedal a lot, and I find it stops great. I did replace the pads on the "lever operated" front brake with HH pads to improve the bite and power there, and they helped. The feel at the lever is quite firm.

 

Jeremy

[Condor]

So on the Venture I had to retrain myself to use the pedal a lot, and I find it stops great. I did replace the pads on the "lever operated" front brake with HH pads to improve the bite and power there, and they helped. The feel at the lever is quite firm.

 

Jeremy

 

Me too Jeremy. The HH pads made a difference. This is just my opinion, right or wrong, but the worse thing you can do is lock up both wheels...anytime... especially when I'm doing 50+. With the OEM system I can slap the binders full on and neither wheel will lock up, but I can reduce speed in a big hurry. Lock 'm up and you might as well be on ice.... I guess it's something that I learned at an early age with drum brakes front and rear... I automatically hit both the rear, and the front, when in a panic stop. I don't even think about it, it's just something I do.

[algie1100]

RE:

Maybe you know this already, but remember that when you pull the hand lever you only get one front caliper, or HALF the front brakes. The linked system gives you the other front caliper and the rear together when you push the foot brake. If you're used to riding bikes with normal brakes, you're accustomed to getting all the front brake power with the lever. So you need to compare apples to apples.

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Hmm. I was not aware of this. That explains why some people de-link the brakes. This is the first bike I have ever owned with linked brakes and I admit that I am used to using the front brakes most of the time. So with the linked brakes should you be able to stop the bike quickly using just the front brake? Or do you need to learn to always use both front and rear brakes?

 

Thanks,

Al

[lonestarmedic]

On a 1st Generation Venture the brakes are linked from rear to the left front. The front lever only operates the right front. to the best of my knowledge. When I woulf hit the front, the stopping power was not very great. When I hit the rear, I got most of my stopping power. It almost seemed that the front lever was "auxiliary stopping power". Don't grab a handful of front only and expect to stop fast. On a normal 1st Gen. you need to hit both to get full WHOA.

[CrazyHorse]

RE:

Maybe you know this already, but remember that when you pull the hand lever you only get one front caliper, or HALF the front brakes. The linked system gives you the other front caliper and the rear together when you push the foot brake. If you're used to riding bikes with normal brakes, you're accustomed to getting all the front brake power with the lever. So you need to compare apples to apples.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Hmm. I was not aware of this. That explains why some people de-link the brakes. This is the first bike I have ever owned with linked brakes and I admit that I am used to using the front brakes most of the time. So with the linked brakes should you be able to stop the bike quickly using just the front brake? Or do you need to learn to always use both front and rear brakes?

 

Thanks,

Al

I think its personal preference I like more fine control of the brakes. I dont like linked brakes on wet,gravel,sand,or slippery surface or in turns where I want maybe some rear only. Some people absoloutely love them I do not. Linked brakes were made as a safety feature because so many people love jamming on that rear brake instead of the fronts when they are supposed to. 70% of your stopping ability is the front brake.

 

As a side note I almost think floor boards on bikes increases your foot pressure on the rear brake unlike a peg bike which I find harder to put hard pressure on the brake. Of course this doesnt mean anything on a 1st Gen with pegs.

[rhncue]

On a 1st Generation Venture the brakes are linked from rear to the left front. The front lever only operates the right front. to the best of my knowledge. When I woulf hit the front, the stopping power was not very great. When I hit the rear, I got most of my stopping power. It almost seemed that the front lever was "auxiliary stopping power". Don't grab a handful of front only and expect to stop fast. On a normal 1st Gen. you need to hit both to get full WHOA.

 

My experience is just the opposite of yours. My foot break by itself will just slow me down where as my single front brake will lock the front wheel if I'm not going very fast and really does a good job of stopping the bike at speed.

 

Dick

[Gearhead]

So with the linked brakes should you be able to stop the bike quickly using just the front brake? Or do you need to learn to always use both front and rear brakes?

 

My experience is like JB's (lonestarmedic). Dick, your experience certainly strikes me as odd. Hmm...

 

Al, when you say "using just the front brake", I think you are really saying "using just the hand lever". And you don't get the WHOLE front brake when you use the hand lever.

 

Hand lever - RH front brake.

Foot pedal - LH front brake AND rear brake.

 

With the Venture weighing 800 lb, YES, you need to use both lever and pedal to get max braking. Used one at a time, the pedal will slow you quicker than the lever. This is backward from regular brakes where you can almost ignore the pedal because it is rear only.

 

I would say the system works when you're used to it. As for liking it better or worse than regular brakes, that's purely preference. I've never seen stopping distances published for the same Venture and rider before and after de-linking :-)

 

Jeremy