attaching sidecars

[Greying]

Even though I no longer have my beloved Venture, I thought maybe someone on this site might have some info for me. It seems to be very hard to find information on actual mounting devices and methods. I know there are kits etc but there does not seem to be any specifics out there in cyber space. I am looking for information especially pictures of how these sidecars (Velorex in my case) are mounted in the hope that I will find one that applies to my 800 Kawi Vulcan. Any help, leads etc would be appreciated. Maybe someone from the dark side can help with tire application etc..

Thank You for any help

from North Bay ON.

[greg_in_london]

From other posters in the USA I'm not 100% certain that the Velorex chairs in the USA are exactly the same as here in the UK, even though the websites have the same pictures.

 

If you post some pictures, then we'll know for sure.

 

My personal view is that a Velorex chair will be too light for a Kwak 800. Some other posters have disagreed.

[kwisor]

Hello

pm me you ph# if i can find the instruction i put a side car on my 99 venture buty have moved it a another bike if you have a fax # ill fax it of giveme you address and i mail then it has photos and instructio it uses a univeral mount kit

kevin wisor

1999 rsv jax fl

[Greying]

Thanks for the replies. The Velorex in Canada is the same as UK from what I have seen. It is a model 562 and yes I was told it is light for the Kawi but my little 800 is well below 600lbs. I do have a 440 Kawi that could be used as a guiney pig but it is rather small and requires a new clutch.

 

I know in a general way how to install them but I am looking for very specific instructions for the 800B since the frame is not overly accessible. The brake pedal is in the way and the rearmost section of the frame is not tubular. I have a complete install kit but it seems to be of a universal design. I think you can access my email through members profile.

Edited October 20, 2008 by Greying
remove email

[BradT]

Greying it's been a while Eh ! Hope all is well with you, up in the North.

 

Good Luck finding the info you are looking for.

 

Brad

[greg_in_london]

A Kawa 440 would be closer to the right weight. Remember the Velorex 562 was designed to go on a 380-400lb Jawa 350 producing 20-odd horsepower. The Kawa 800 is a lot more than that (the 440 is still more, too).

 

Sorry, but while I have idly looked at a Kawa 800 and thought, 'Hmmm, I could put a sidecar on that,' (last week, in fact - a friend has picked an abandoned one up and it's in his shop) - I've done no more than that.

 

One thing that you have to decide, though, is whether you are prepared to weld on eyebolts. If you are, then you don't have to worry about what section the tube is (so long as it's thick enough).

 

I'm guessing that the kit that you refer to is simlar to what's shown in this page: http://www.f2motorcycles.ltd.uk/sidecars.html

If it is, you will probably find that the box clamp in the top right hand corner is okay for the back lower fixing on the sidecar. You'll want the fitting to go straight across to a point as far back as you can go, without mounting anything excessively weak.

 

The other illustrated mounts are only for round section tubes, so you may need to find if you can get eyebolts to attach to any mounting bolts on the frame. If you have a 14mm bolt sticking out, or can fit an overlength one and have an eyebolt which has (or could take) that size thread for example, then this may be better than attaching a clamp to the frame.

 

It's hard to be any more specific without pictures of your bike and the fittings you have available.

[Greying]

Greying it's been a while Eh ! Hope all is well with you, up in the North.

 

Good Luck finding the info you are looking for.

 

Brad

 

Yep it's been a while for sure but things change. I sort of lost the oomph for a while after my friend was killed by a fluke bike accident. Then priorities changed and on and on. I am going to Waterloo in a few weeks to see my daughter. She is done her university there but has pretty much decided she likes to live in the area so I think they will be looking for a starter home. In the mean time my other daughter is with child so I will be a grampa. That is taking some getting my head around it but since she already has a house, good job, a "decent" partner it will be ok.

[Greying]

A Kawa 440 would be closer to the right weight. Remember the Velorex 562 was designed to go on a 380-400lb Jawa 350 producing 20-odd horsepower. The Kawa 800 is a lot more than that (the 440 is still more, too).

 

Sorry, but while I have idly looked at a Kawa 800 and thought, 'Hmmm, I could put a sidecar on that,' (last week, in fact - a friend has picked an abandoned one up and it's in his shop) - I've done no more than that.

 

One thing that you have to decide, though, is whether you are prepared to weld on eyebolts. If you are, then you don't have to worry about what section the tube is (so long as it's thick enough).

 

I'm guessing that the kit that you refer to is simlar to what's shown in this page: http://www.f2motorcycles.ltd.uk/sidecars.html

If it is, you will probably find that the box clamp in the top right hand corner is okay for the back lower fixing on the sidecar. You'll want the fitting to go straight across to a point as far back as you can go, without mounting anything excessively weak.

 

The other illustrated mounts are only for round section tubes, so you may need to find if you can get eyebolts to attach to any mounting bolts on the frame. If you have a 14mm bolt sticking out, or can fit an overlength one and have an eyebolt which has (or could take) that size thread for example, then this may be better than attaching a clamp to the frame.

 

It's hard to be any more specific without pictures of your bike and the fittings you have available.

 

Right you are just like the velorex UK touring and the mounting kit shown lower down the page. I will try to put a picture of my bike on tomorrow.

 

Thanks for the info.

Gilles

[Guest BigJohnD]

I will start by saying that I am in no way an expert on side cars.

 

OK...with that out of the way...I have dabbled in the idea of owning one. Even bought one with all the mounting gear.

 

Then the fun started. Side cars can be done, but unless you understand all the "toe" adjustments and the "lean" adjustments...not to mention the weight to bike ratios, then you are in for some learning.

 

Then comes the driving part. Having heard advice that said "and if you get it just right, you can go down the high way at 60MPH with relatively little drama"...at which point I was ready to say...relatively little, heck I want no drama. Side cars can give you a squirrely ride if you are just a little out. I mean 1/4 inch...and knowing me...I am not that exacting in most things. So to put that to a side car rig...well you do the math.

 

Then came the learning to drive the rig. Starting with a load and having the car fight you to get going...stopping is the opposite. The side car wants to keep going...in an arc...while you are trying to stay pointed down the road. Stopping on a hill with a load on...if the side car does not have brakes can be fun.

 

Then there is flying the car...we who ride bikes are used to counter steering the bike around corners...not so with a side car rig. You positive steer...until the car starts flying, then you have to make rapid adjustments...until the tire comes back down...then you adjust back to positive steering again. All the while, you are dodging cars in the other lane...if you are still on the road at that point. The advice I got there was to "practice a lot in a vacant parking lot". UUUUHHHH...scuse me...

 

Anyway...I sold the side car...having never gotten the nerve to hook it up to the bike I wanted to use.

 

The point of all this is not to scare you...certainly not. I think you should have all the fun you want to have in life. I am just saying I did a lot of investigating...and determined that I was in over my head. Now I do not say that about most things...but this was one of those rare moments when my good sense kicked in and prevented me from really screwing up.

 

But...if I ever come across a well set up rig...for the right price...I just might get the bug again.

 

Good luck...keep us posted on the progress...I watch in eager anticipation.

[BradT]

Yep it's been a while for sure but things change. I sort of lost the oomph for a while after my friend was killed by a fluke bike accident. Then priorities changed and on and on. I am going to Waterloo in a few weeks to see my daughter. .

 

Sorry to hear about your friend. When you do make it down, look us up and stop by for a coffee or a beer.

 

Phone numbers are in my profile, If you can give us a day or so notice.

 

BRad

[Greying]

Sorry to hear about your friend. When you do make it down, look us up and stop by for a coffee or a beer.

 

Phone numbers are in my profile, If you can give us a day or so notice.

 

BRad

 

I will for sure give you a call if it works out. Of course. you realize after 29 years (today) I am still not the boss

[PBJ]

Hey greying sorry I haven't getten to this sooner i was in Italy. Anyway I've been running a velorex 700 on a yamaha XS 1100 for almost 10 years now. Before that I had it on a 850 yamaha. Rmemeber your Vulcan is only putting out about 50 Bhp at the rear wheel so it shouldn't be too strong for the car, Its going to depend on what your putting in there. a person, a pet or just equipment. A great ballast will be car battery in the car to power the bike. This adds weight and extra juice to power the extra lights.

 

set up depend on riding conditions. do you ride highways flat roads or more back roads with high road crowns. This will determine some of your set up. send me some questions and i'll try to answer or look up Hack'd.com to see more info on sidecar set up.

[Greying]

Hey greying sorry I haven't getten to this sooner i was in Italy. Anyway I've been running a velorex 700 on a yamaha XS 1100 for almost 10 years now. Before that I had it on a 850 yamaha. Rmemeber your Vulcan is only putting out about 50 Bhp at the rear wheel so it shouldn't be too strong for the car, Its going to depend on what your putting in there. a person, a pet or just equipment. A great ballast will be car battery in the car to power the bike. This adds weight and extra juice to power the extra lights.

 

set up depend on riding conditions. do you ride highways flat roads or more back roads with high road crowns. This will determine some of your set up. send me some questions and i'll try to answer or look up Hack'd.com to see more info on sidecar set up.

 

You pretty much read my mind. I figure(know compared to my 86 venture royal) the Vulcan is not a power beast (46 hp) and not that heavy (550ish lbs). I will likely be riding a fair bit of highway but the whole idea is to be able to take those little jaunts down the dirt sideroads, we have lots up here, and to be able to look at things and enjoy the trip rather than simply concentrate on staying right side up. I have been to many web sites and am trying to consider all ideas/comments that have been offered. I have downloaded the guru of sidecar book from the hack'd site. More than one person has said the velorex (I think mine is a 562 [16 x 3.25 tire]) is too small for the Vulcan but it was mounted to vintage Goldwing before. I guess if I could find drawings showing exactly how to mount it on this particular bike, that would be the ultimate. I dont have a lot of money to play with as far as getting a bike specific kit ($500.00 cdn) and I dont want to ruin my bike either. I am afraid the 440 even though much easier to install on, is a bit too small but some say no. Please send me any advice you can, I will gratefully lread it and hopefully learn.

[BradT]

I will for sure give you a call if it works out. Of course. you realize after 29 years (today) I am still not the boss

 

Happy Anniversary,

 

If you get the time Great.

 

Brad

[greg_in_london]

I've just checked the specs for the Z440 - I hadn't realised they were so gutless - 27-29hp ! Even the GPz305 was better than that ! Even so, weight wise I would say it's a better match. I found a picture of a Drifter with a 562 attached at http://www.sidecarcanada.com/archive/562kaw.html

http://www.sidecarcanada.com/images/000_0250.JPG

 

Looking at Kwak 800 pictures, it would be easier to fit on the left hand side, as any right minded person would wish to, but if you must fit on the right, from the pictures it looks as if there is space just below the seat, there may be places to bolt a bracket poking out beneath the exhaust and nelow the headstock, where the frame bolts together maybe those bolts could be extended and a bracket made.

 

I've used a stock photo to see if that helps clarify.

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh10/greg_in_london/sidecar/kawa800.jpg

Whatever happens, ifyou're doing it on a budget you're going to have to make some parts.

[Greying]

the picture is close, mine is an 800B Classic but pretty much the same. I can use the allen bolts top/front and top/rear as well but it will interfere with passengers' leg. I think the bracket you highlight at the bottom rearmost is actually in the middle of the bike and it is the unishock lwr mounting bracket. At the bottom front, there is the brake pedal mechanism that seems to be in the way unless I can find a way to mount the attaching arm so that it does not block pedal movement.

 

Thanks for the help

[1rooster]

I've heard it said over and over and over that the Velorex is too "wimpy" for the Venture.Let me tell you from first hand experience you don't know what you are talking about.I have over 20,000 miles on my sidecar and 90% of that riding in the mountains of NC.And yes mine has been over 100 miles per hour on interstate with the wife in the hack.Say what you want to and think what you want to but the Velorex is staying on my 99 Venture.I'm tired of hearing people bashing the Velorex on a Venture.Unless you have one you don't know what you are talking about.

[greg_in_london]

Hi Rooster,

 

As I said above (somewhere) there may be different models in different markets. I followed the links through to your dragon's tail pictures and presume that that is the sidecar that you are talking about - the nose of the sidecar certainly looks distinctly velorex, but after that little else is familiar. I haven't seen a round nose sidecar with a body at the back at head height, with a foot plate, nor with a crash bar underneath at the front.

 

It may be that yours is significantly heavier than those I have experience of and that yours was never intended to grace a Jawa 350. I've had different models on three Jawa 350s, a Suzuki GS250T, a GT380, GT550 and, with a heavier body, a GS550. My experience is that the Velorexes THAT I HAVE EXPERIENCE OF would be too lightweight for a motorcycle that is much bigger. I bent the stub axles on one Jawa and also the GS550, although I understand that Velorex have upgraded the spindle on newer models. If you read my other threads you will see that I'm not often likely to be accused of being excessively cautious....

Your sidecar may be different though, and I can't see the fittings on your photos.

[greg_in_london]

Hi Greying,

 

I visited my friend's bike shop today and had a closer look at his Kawa 800, although wedged between other bikes it wasn't that easy to get a good look.

 

The lower rear possible fitting you mention - in the picture you can see two bolts that hold the exhaust on. From what I could see, if you could weld a fittig to a plate and bolt it here, it could be solid. Alternatively there is a large nut just ahead of it. A female eye bolt with a thread tapped to match could maybe be attached here.

 

It would be tempting to remove the rear footpeg and attach a fitting here, but that would also be quite low. You can locate a bracket just below the seat - the pillion passenger will probably be able to find somewhere else to place their feet once the sidecar is in place - it may even be MORE comfortable...

 

At the front, those allen bolts holding the frame together look a good option, unless you have a fitting that will span the two downtubes.

 

At the bottom, the bracket for the footrest could be employed, always remembering that you still need to use the pedal... I couldn't see an easy way of spanning both downtubes or the engine mounts - not with two boltholes on each side to prevent it rotating.

 

Making and usig fittings really depends o both your skills and confidence as a fabricator and what fittings you have already.

 

Good luck.

[1rooster]

Hi Rooster,

 

As I said above (somewhere) there may be different models in different markets. I followed the links through to your dragon's tail pictures and presume that that is the sidecar that you are talking about - the nose of the sidecar certainly looks distinctly velorex, but after that little else is familiar. I haven't seen a round nose sidecar with a body at the back at head height, with a foot plate, nor with a crash bar underneath at the front.

 

It may be that yours is significantly heavier than those I have experience of and that yours was never intended to grace a Jawa 350. I've had different models on three Jawa 350s, a Suzuki GS250T, a GT380, GT550 and, with a heavier body, a GS550. My experience is that the Velorexes THAT I HAVE EXPERIENCE OF would be too lightweight for a motorcycle that is much bigger. I bent the stub axles on one Jawa and also the GS550, although I understand that Velorex have upgraded the spindle on newer models. If you read my other threads you will see that I'm not often likely to be accused of being excessively cautious....

Your sidecar may be different though, and I can't see the fittings on your photos.

 

 

I have the Velorex 565

http://www.velorexusa.com/more565_1.shtml

Edited November 6, 2008 by 1rooster

[greg_in_london]

Hi 1Rooster, Greying says he has a 562 - the most common model in the UK (although it was a 700 I put on the GS250T).

 

The fitting kit they show on the website I would regard as not strong enough for anything but the lightest bike - there are three eyebolts in a row and cannot stop flex. The front lower connection is the ONLY thing stopping the bike from folding onto the sidecar.

 

I'd be interested in seeing how yours is connected to the bike - I looked at a few of your pictures but couldn't see and the Jawa USA website only has diagrams for the 562 (for which I have full parts lists, including fittings, if people want) and 700. Maybe it's a model they make over there ?

[greg_in_london]

Well I've done a bit more searching - didn't find anything in the UK, but stretching my (nonexistent) Czech I found info on a couple of obscure Velorex models. According to this site, the 565 was available from 2004:

http://www.volny.cz/sidecar/Sidecary_Ve.htm

 

Here is a picture of a 565 fitted to a Jawa 650:

http://www.sidecar-cz.com/sidecary_foto/foto_sidecar_v/Jawa_650_Velorex_565/jawa_650_velorex_56512.jpg

There are the 'usual' four fittings plus a fifth one. I can't make out what it connects to on the bike, but it uses a Squire/Watsonian-style box clamp on the sidecar. I'd suggest that the other lower/rear(middle?) fitting is not not only useless, but redundant - I'd lose it and use the mounting point for the more solid connector from the box clamp.

 

I've no idea what the sigificance of this page is, but someone from the Sidecar Club in Prague went to a lot of effort either to design, or to upgrade a 565 to fit it to a Honda 750, although the fittings chosen look a bit odd, possibly because of the angle the photos were taken from. Have a look, though:

http://www.sidecar-cz.com/clenove/reznik/Honda_cb_750.html

Edited November 6, 2008 by greg_in_london
sorting typos

[Greying]

Greg, thanks very much for the info. From what I have been able to find out, it seems that folks are manufacturing a partial subframe for application of my model of bike. They use a bar that goes across both tubes for the front upper mount. Then they have a bar that sort of goes the length of the frame at bottom with tabs welded on that attach at the front footrest and at the exhaust support. The sidecar mounts are then attached to that. The upper rear is fastened by fabricating a plate that bolts where the rear fender is bolted on. I will forward you an email with pics.

Gilles:12101:

[greg_in_london]

£$%^&*() I just spent ages pontificating about sidecar fittings then fell for a spoof IM on photobucket and had to crash out of internet explorer to avoid downloading nasties. Grrr

 

Anyway, the long and the short of it was that the original Jawas had brackets across both front down tubes as well. I explained how the lower rear/middle worked (much better than the kit version) and then went on about eye bolts. You're probably all glad to have missed that anyway..

 

The eyebolt bit is important, though. When you first set up a sidecar it's tempting to triangulate the fittings and attach them to a nice neat line of eyebolts. The problem with them is that you can only tighten them so much and then they act as pivot pins.

 

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh10/greg_in_london/sidecar/pinjoint.jpg

 

 

The result is an outfit that sags into the middle.

The Velorex 562 (and 700) has a sleeve that the front fitting inserts into and clamps up nice and tight. If you have a lightweight combination you might feel that that is strength enough. If not, then it is a shame that there is nothing similar at the back. All I can suggest is a box clamp like the one in the Jawa 650/velorex picture above.

 

The original version was longer - but never mind.

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh10/greg_in_london/trailer.gif