New coils ?

[Thom]

i have been replacing coils on Silver alot . i think they are getting old ? i have changed #2 coil twice , i think it is from heat and age ? the 1st time i changed #2 , it took out my TCI from a direct short after the the coil got hot [ GeorgeS helped me with that 1 , thanks George !] i am thinking about a after market coil to replace the old ones , anybody know what the specs. are on a 1st gen coil are ? have anybody tried a after market coil on a 1st gen.? also i am thinking about moving the coils closer the spark plugs , making them easyer to change and shorter spark plug leads ? Any ideas ? thanks

Thom

[Venturous Randy]

Good question Thom. One of the things I have wondered about is using the coil pack that sits on the spark plug like many cars have. I wonder if they could be interfaced with our TCI and trigger mechinism? And, there is the concern of space.

Hope you get some good answers.

RandyA

[5bikes]

In my experience I've had more problems with oxidizing/corrouding wires and spark plug caps than coils. Try cutting a 1/4" off both ends of all spark plug wires and reinserting. And clean up all the 12v terminals. I use brake cleaner.

[Thom]

Good question Thom. One of the things I have wondered about is using the coil pack that sits on the spark plug like many cars have. I wonder if they could be interfaced with our TCI and trigger mechinism? And, there is the concern of space.

Hope you get some good answers.

RandyA

Randy , i was thinking of hanging the coils off the frame rite above the spark plug ? i was looking at the single post Hd coils in the new jc whitney book on page 107 , i think our TCI just turns off and on the neg. anybody know ?

5bikes

the coils will go bad and start to crack from age and heat and the internal wires will short .

Thom

[Squidley]

Will newer Vmax coils work on it

[Gearhead]

Daveg90 moved the coils on his Super Sport mod. You can find info at:

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=12739&highlight=coils

 

I've seen that writeup with the pics before, but they don't seem to be in this thread.

 

Coils don't go bad very often. But I would think, and this is just a thought, that just about any standard coil should work. The TCI is indeed just a ground switching device, like electronic breaker points.

 

Jeremy

[GeorgeS]

I really don't think there is anything to be gained by going to some other type of coil.

These bikes, seem to run Great, if nothing is wrong with the Ignition system.

 

#2 coil failing Twice --- Hmmm. Strange, but could happen.

 

Have you opened up your TCI, and done the dry out proceedure, and Resoldering of the Circuit board ??

 

Have you cleaned up the Plug from Pick up coils to the TCI. ??

 

Have you carefully checked the wires going into the TWO plugs of the TCI, for any sign of damage, or being loose in the Pins inside the plugs.

 

Have you carefully inspected the Two wire Plug, going to the #2 Ignition Coil ??

( maby a dirty connection in that plug. )

 

Check page 7-1, Block Diagram. Note, the " Gy " wire going to the fuel pump relay, and Tachometer. Possibly some problem on this wire, causeing the Coil not to fire correctly, ??? Just Speculateing here ---- Maby a problem in the Fuel Pump Relay ??? dragging down the voltage on the Primary Winding, --- Not likley, but you never know with electrical stuff.

 

Also, consider, your Pick Up Coils, and the Enroute Plug from the Pick Up coils going to the TCI. ( Have you checked, and cleaned that plug ? )

[Thom]

George ,i was hoping you would step in , to all your ? yep , i am just thinking about a newer set of coils , i think the reason the coils went bad , because they had cracks and water got into them , they are only 21 years old . the new stock coils cost a little over 50 bucks each and for that price i mite try a upgrade . i am going to move the coils to keep the leads short and the coils cooler and dryer .

Thom

[GeorgeS]

George ,i was hoping you would step in , to all your ? yep , i am just thinking about a newer set of coils , i think the reason the coils went bad , because they had cracks and water got into them , they are only 21 years old . the new stock coils cost a little over 50 bucks each and for that price i mite try a upgrade . i am going to move the coils to keep the leads short and the coils cooler and dryer .

Thom

 

OK, nothing against Replaceing them. I thought the discussion was about maby replaceing them with some other type-- ?? That would just be opening up another can of worms, and lots of engineering problems.

 

You might watch E-Bay-- I got a set of 4 , a couple years ago for about $40.00.

I simply wanted to have a couple of Spares. ( I always carry a spare )

 

On an 0ld bike, YES, Replace them, If you suspect them. But stay with the Stock Coils, thats my only point here.

 

Also, get some bulk, 7MM Solid Core Plug wire, and Replace that also,

 

Also, NGK, Plug Caps, If you still have the original Plug Caps. Good idea to replace them.

 

I also, Rewired My " Fuel Pump Relay, and Fuel Pump ". I now have a seperate "Fuse" Feeding power to these two items !! Check page 7-1 block diagram.

[CrazyHorse]

Actually saw a set of Dyna coils on ebay about a month ago for the Venture. They were blue only set I ever saw though.

[mbrood]

The spec calls out for a 3 Ohm primary coil... THIS is what the TCI is expecting to see for a load. The secondary is ballparked at 12 K Ohm. The Dyna coils are a suitable hop-up on many other bikes and they DO offer a 3 Ohm version, quite pricey. Now the secondary side is a bit tougher as "our coils" want to see that 10 k Ohm loaded cap above the resistive spark plugs. But several guys have used the NGK wire and cap combo (which is about 5 kOhm I believe) and non-resistive plugs.

 

I think the real key would be to stay with the "3 Ohm" style coils???

 

The V-Max DOES use the exact same part (25G-82310-10-00), 1985-2007, no revised number (no upgrade) so they must be pretty happy with the coil!

 

As you guessed, the "hot" side of the primary is tied straight to the ignition fuse and the TCI "grounds" that coil's "low" side to generate a spark. It's the TCI primary output drive transistors that were selected to match the 3 Ohm series load and the coil's reactance characteristics.

 

Inside the TCI, these are the 4 large transistors with heatsinks. This is also the area where Yamaha originally used 2 round (gray and blue) glass cased diodes on each final (8 total). These started failing in the field and were updated on newer 1st gen bikes... we can just swap them out with 1N4002 diodes... much stronger, better all the way around.. and cheap! No real idea when the updated dodes were introduced.

 

As 5bikes said, either end of those solid core plug lines can grow that green corrosion and start acting up. I Ohmed from the inside of the spark plug cap back to the ignition fuse... three read about 23 k Ohms (10 for the cap and ~13 K Ohms for the coils)... the fourth one read 35 k Ohms... the resistor in the cap was good and the coil measured 13 K so I clipped 1/4" off the coil end of the spark wire and retested... 23 k Ohms... drastic change and a simple test and fix. And yeah, I could SEE the green stuff on the coil end and the cap end looked fresh and clean... but a little dialectric grease is always applied. Another good test... with the Ohm meter from the spak plug cap to the ignition fuse... give a slight tug on the wire at the cap and at the coil... if you don't have a good connection it will show up right then and need to be corrected. (Yeah, my first attempt at putting the line back in the coil was great, until I pulled on it just a bit... then it went open, shove that wire ALL the way in.)

[Dano]

Nice post, MBrood, gives me something to use to chase down this phantom miss I've got. New wires and caps from Buckeye performance this past winter. I'll have to check out that "pull on the wire" thing. Could be it.

 

Thanks a lot,

 

Dan

[Thom]

The spec calls out for a 3 Ohm primary coil... THIS is what the TCI is expecting to see for a load. The secondary is ballparked at 12 K Ohm. The Dyna coils are a suitable hop-up on many other bikes and they DO offer a 3 Ohm version, quite pricey. Now the secondary side is a bit tougher as "our coils" want to see that 10 k Ohm loaded cap above the resistive spark plugs. But several guys have used the NGK wire and cap combo (which is about 5 kOhm I believe) and non-resistive plugs.

 

I think the real key would be to stay with the "3 Ohm" style coils???

 

The V-Max DOES use the exact same part (25G-82310-10-00), 1985-2007, no revised number (no upgrade) so they must be pretty happy with the coil!

 

As you guessed, the "hot" side of the primary is tied straight to the ignition fuse and the TCI "grounds" that coil's "low" side to generate a spark. It's the TCI primary output drive transistors that were selected to match the 3 Ohm series load and the coil's reactance characteristics.

 

Inside the TCI, these are the 4 large transistors with heatsinks. This is also the area where Yamaha originally used 2 round (gray and blue) glass cased diodes on each final (8 total). These started failing in the field and were updated on newer 1st gen bikes... we can just swap them out with 1N4002 diodes... much stronger, better all the way around.. and cheap! No real idea when the updated dodes were introduced.

 

As 5bikes said, either end of those solid core plug lines can grow that green corrosion and start acting up. I Ohmed from the inside of the spark plug cap back to the ignition fuse... three read about 23 k Ohms (10 for the cap and ~13 K Ohms for the coils)... the fourth one read 35 k Ohms... the resistor in the cap was good and the coil measured 13 K so I clipped 1/4" off the coil end of the spark wire and retested... 23 k Ohms... drastic change and a simple test and fix. And yeah, I could SEE the green stuff on the coil end and the cap end looked fresh and clean... but a little dialectric grease is always applied. Another good test... with the Ohm meter from the spak plug cap to the ignition fuse... give a slight tug on the wire at the cap and at the coil... if you don't have a good connection it will show up right then and need to be corrected. (Yeah, my first attempt at putting the line back in the coil was great, until I pulled on it just a bit... then it went open, shove that wire ALL the way in.)

 

you the man ! that is what i was looking for ! plus i now know how to fix my old TCI that blew when #2 coil shorted .

now for the next ? is has anyone tried a Vmax TCI on a 1st gen with out doing any other mods ? just thinking about what to add to the parts list when mining for gold at the mc salvage !

Thom

[mbrood]

1989 V-max:

igniter module 1FK-82305-10-00

boost sensor 22N-82380-10-00

 

87 venture:

igniter module 41R-82305-11-00

boost sensor 22N-82380-10-00

 

The V-max uses a different cam so that changes the timing I believe...

the boost sensor shows the same... so I would think THAT might say

the igniters are different enough that they don't swap... unless you

want to drop in a new cam?

 

Hmmm... a 1990 V-Max lists:

igniter module 3JP-82305-11-00

boost sensor 22N-82380-10-00

 

1990 Venture:

igniter module 3JJ-82305-11-00

boost sensor 22N-82380-10-00

 

maybe that year ALSO went to the CDI

and single ignition pick-up like the Venture.

 

If so that "82305" part doesn't mean much

[Squeeze]

The change from 2-coil Pickup to single Coil went in 1990 on both Bikes, Vmax and 1Gen.

 

I never came to try exchanging the Igniter Units, but i believe a Vmax Unit will work in a 1Gen. It's just the Spark Advance Curve which makes them different. The Motor won't be hurt because of some Degrees more Spark Advance.

 

They changed the Curve to less Advance the later Years to meet EPA Requirements. The Power is where the elder Units are. The early Vmax has up 42° Advance, the newer only 33°.

[mbrood]

Squeeze,

 

Your info is great... I'll even archive it so I remember.

 

But I'll still fight for the "4" pickups on the early 1st gen... inside the left side cover there are "4" pickup coils and 5 wires out (black = common). Now there's only two magnets in the flywheel... an "inner" and an "outer" that matches since two of the coils are mounted further inside than the other two. Unless you have some other info I haven't run across...

[Neil86]

If so that "82305" part doesn't mean much

 

Mike.....that section of the part number is the descriptor.....its an ignitor...look up a Virago (V Twin) with TCI....ignitor is an 82305 as well, but with different prefix.....since its for a Virago. Unless the entire part number is the same, its not the same part...

Yamaha's with CDI call the box a different name, and a different number.

[Squeeze]

Squeeze,

 

Your info is great... I'll even archive it so I remember.

 

But I'll still fight for the "4" pickups on the early 1st gen... inside the left side cover there are "4" pickup coils and 5 wires out (black = common). Now there's only two magnets in the flywheel... an "inner" and an "outer" that matches since two of the coils are mounted further inside than the other two. Unless you have some other info I haven't run across...

 

I've never seen such an Setup. But i know the double Track Flywheel, it might be the same as the later 2 Pickup System.

[mbrood]

Here's the inside of the '86 left cover... yep, 4 coils and they are identified by wire color.

The 84 has the exact same setup... if there was a "mid-term" change before the 90 ( to dual coils) and the single pick-up and transition to CDI, I don't know...

 

You can see the "inner" and "outer" coils...

 

http://bergall.org/temp/venture/alternator-a.jpg

[Squeeze]

I purchased a dual Coil Set from a early 1Gen Months ago and checked them for Coil Resistance before storing them. Just for tinkering with them on my Max later this Year.

 

I will pull them out on Monday and take a Look at them. I just can't remember the Looks of it right now.

[Squeeze]

On a second Thought, the 2-Pickup Coil Wireing Harness always referred 5 Wires which would conclude the same Setup. Probably these physical 4 Coils are named as 2 Coil Pickup, because there are 2 Coils in each Casing ?

[mbrood]

I can sure see where they would call an individual unit a "dual pick-up". The TCI definitely takes four pick-up coil wires "IN" and triggers four ignition coils.

[Squeeze]

Sorry for being late on this Issue, but the Pickup Coil i got is exactly like the Thing in the Photo.

 

So, we have to state, the 2 Pickup Coil Ensemble is in Fact a four Coil Unit, those are in two Casings and that's why Yammi calls them 2 Pickup Coils.